Sticks, Stones, and Systemic Issues: The ADHD Bullying Study with Brooke Schnittman
Hey Team!
We often talk about the "internal" struggles of ADHD, the messy desks and the forgotten appointments, but we don't always talk about how the outside world reacts to those traits. I’m joined by Brooke Schnittman, an ADHD coach and the best-selling author of Activate Your ADHD Potential. Brooke has worked with thousands of individuals to help them develop sustainable systems for focus and emotional regulation, but today, she’s here to talk about a global study she conducted on the link between ADHD and bullying.
So in today’s episode, we’re talking about how this study was conducted and what we can garner from that data. We also discuss the "invisible disability" penalty, where our symptoms are misinterpreted as character flaws, and how "masking" can actually prevent us from progressing because we’re too busy being chameleons. And we also cover some practical ways to identify safe people and build a "reciprocal" support system that helps buffer against the impact of chronic criticism.
If you'd life to follow along on the show notes page you can find that at HackingYourADHD.com/283
YouTube: https://tinyurl.com/y835cnrk
William Curb: Tell us a little bit about the study about bullying here.
Brooke Schnittman: Yeah, so bullying is definitely part of my identity. I have been bullied since age of eight to my knowledge all the way until now, and I'm 42 years old, but it had the greatest impact on me from age eight to 35. And when I started coaching, which happened to be at the age of 35, I understood that I wasn't alone in this and that there were so many adults that I was working with that were starting to say the same kind of thing. Like I was bullied in childhood. I'm identifying that I'm being micromanaged multiple times at work.
I'm being yelled at by my boss. My relationships with partners are being like this. So there were all these things that they were saying, chronic criticism, exclusion, misunderstanding that I thought to myself, is this something that is just occurring in my community or is this more of a global systemic issue with adults and ADHD? So that's what led me to starting this survey.
William Curb: Yeah, tell me a little bit. How was the survey conducted? Who was filling it out?
Brooke Schnittman: Yeah, so the people who filled out the survey were self-selected. Right? They chose to fill it out. They self-identified as having ADHD. They were 18 and older, and they were asked questions such as, were you bullied as a child? Were you bullied as an adult? If so, in what settings, were you the bully? And what kind of strategies did you have to overcome a lot of the trauma that came with the bullying? So I was curious on the strategies and the struggles and the stories behind all of these adults. Yeah.
William Curb: And so when you were asking these questions, were you bullied? Was this being the specific question or was it asking about things that happened that would then be considered bullying?
Brooke Schnittman: Yeah, good question. So the question was point blank, were you bullied? And in the survey itself, it defined what bullying is. So bullying, a lot of people ask what it is. It's a repeated targeted behavior, and it involves a power imbalance and causes harm, where the person being targeted has difficulty defending themselves. So there's three core elements of it.
There's repetition, power imbalance, and harm. And what happened in the survey, it wasn't just quantitative yes, no answers, there were qualitative answers. So I then happened to look at the qualitative answers that each person described, and it was actual bullying that they described.
William Curb: Yeah, because that was exactly what I was thinking. Like, it's really easy for us to misinterpret bullying, either being like, yes, that is bullying, or with ADHD, sometimes we're a little bit oblivious to things that are going on there. Like, oh, that's just how people are.
Brooke Schnittman: Well, exactly. And that is what I found in this study. It's so fascinating. So many of the respondents in this survey didn't realize that in fact, what they were receiving was bullying until they met with an ADHD professional. So they thought it was a them problem that they were just, you know, on the outside that they needed to change who they were as people until they identified that A, they have ADHD and B, this is bullying and it's not okay.
William Curb: Mm-hmm. So I want to kind of go into those aspects of what bullying are, because I think one of the, that also creates some confusion for people. Like, what does it mean to have a power imbalance?
Brooke Schnittman: Yeah. So one person or group has more power. So let's say an authority figure, like a boss, a teacher, or a parent, right? This happened with me. My teacher would bully me and would purposely do things in the classroom to call me out in fourth grade. So one thing is I remember there was a spelling test, right? I studied so hard.
I got a hundred on it. I, all of a sudden, didn't put my name on the test, right? So her new rule after that on that incident was let me deduct 20 points from your test because you didn't put your name on it. This was in fourth grade. And she started that rule on that day when I didn't put my name on the test. So there were multiple occurrences like that that she did not do to the other people. Bosses as an adult, screaming, manipulation, constant micromanagement when they're not doing that to other people, social exclusion, like actually not inviting you specifically as an employee to an event where everyone else is invited, right?
A parent can do that, right? So these are authority figures. Social power. So very often impacted because we have RSD, we have working memory issues, we have executive function challenges. So that impacts our social status. And when there's people higher on the social ladder, then they're more popular, there's group dynamics. So that's a power imbalance as well. Emotional leverage. So if you're dependent on something or someone, right? Or manipulation, systemic advantage. So neurotypical norms over neurodivergent traits.
William Curb: Yeah, absolutely. It's one of the things that I feel like some people only see power dynamics in that straight boss employee kind of thing. But yeah, the social standing and just your ability to fight back is a big aspect, I feel.
Brooke Schnittman: For me personally, I can speak that I had a hard time fighting back. I would freeze in situations. My working memory wasn't working. And I didn't know after the situation that I was being bullied and I could speak up for myself. So I would replay the situation like an hour later, I would tell my parents or I would tell friends and be like, wait a second, like you didn't say anything? Or I would have those conversations in the mirror and be like, ah, I should have said this, right? And that's so hard for us with ADHD because when we are threatened or not understanding the social cues, we're misinterpreting it. And then we're not standing up for ourselves in those situations.
William Curb: Yeah, it's our parathym sympathetic nervous system is like switching on and then that causes these physiological changes that make it so that it's physically harder for us to think.
Brooke Schnittman: We can't think. There is no thinking. We're not feeling safe. We're feeling threatened. It's like the bear is running after us and our executive functions are turning off.
William Curb: Yeah. And I think that's an incredibly important point for people to understand. It's not like, oh, I was just, I froze in the moment and it's like, no, this is like, you had physiological changes that like made this really hard for you. It was not just you not reaching the moment. It was there's a lot of baggage with ADHD.
Brooke Schnittman: There's a lot, a lot of preparation that you have to try to train your brain to remember certain things that if a situation happens, do this. But then in that situation, your brain is freezing. So how do you do that and recall the memory when you're not accessing working memory? It's not going to go into your recall. So there's, yeah, there's lots of challenges.
William Curb: Yeah. Okay. And so I guess repeated targeting is that's, I think, fairly understandable like more than once. I'm interested in that definition too, because I feel like there could be like singular instance of someone like exerting power over you and causing harm.
Brooke Schnittman: Correct. So as the definition I took from the CDC and what I've seen out there, it's not a one-time conflict. Listen, I'm not the expert here as far as bullying, but I am a lived experience person and I'm just want to share these studies. There is coercion and we are all coerced as humans. So a one-time thing can look more like coercion than bullying. And I know that's a gray area right there.
William Curb: And it's an interesting thing because you could be, if you're looking, we're looking at this from the victim side of things, but as a aggressor side, a bully could have multiple targets. They are repeating this activity to multiple people.
Brooke Schnittman: Right. That's right. That's right. Yeah. No, that's a really good question. Really good question. Yeah.
William Curb: And so then I guess the third piece is this idea of harm, because that's, I think, also something that I know a lot of times I downplay things for myself. I'm like, that wasn't so bad. I can imagine that could be a problem too, where people are just like, well, feeling like they deserve what they got.
Brooke Schnittman: Right. And until you talk it out with a professional, you don't know. Right. And that's part of the issue is that a lot of people do not know that they are being bullied. And the behavior of harm causes emotional, psychological, social, and professional harm. So we're not just talking about overt like you see in childhood, where someone's teasing you or they're fighting. Right. We can talk about covert where they're excluding you and it's happening over and over again. So it's not as in your face. So all of those things.
William Curb: Well, and it's levels of harm are really interesting to think about too, because we often think of like, oh, it needs to be physical or emotional and have like this immediate impact kind of thing. But it's teasing, I think, is a great example here where maybe you're getting teased about something. And so you don't go like, you're like, oh, they're teasing me because I have to keep having getting hurt on the playground. And now I have to, I don't want to go see the nurse because they're going to say something.
Brooke Schnittman: Exactly. Exactly. Or like, I was just joking. I'm just being honest or remember no offense, but or I'm trying to help you or you're too sensitive. Right. It's all the things that we have heard so many times as ADHDers that it makes us confused. And also it's hard to make friends as someone who has ADHD, because very often we're socially stunted because we don't have the social skills to make friends and understand ourselves, to make the right types of friends and the right choices. And we have impulsivity and so on. And I know I'm going on a tangent here. But when you have a friend who also might be bullying you, right, it gets confusing. Yeah.
William Curb: Because it doesn't feel, might not feel bad in the moment, but it might feel bad later where you're like, or it might feel bad later and you're like justifying it. But it's either, it's one of those things where it's like, this is affecting my future behavior because of how this dynamic is working and not in a good way.
Brooke Schnittman: Yep. Exactly. Exactly. So it gets very complicated with the neurodivergent population who are trying so hard to be liked and people pleasing and then still also in the moment are having a hard time understanding, like, is this actually happening?
And in adulthood, it looks so different too that it's hard to identify. Yeah. A single severe incident can function like bullying. So for example, public humiliation by a boss in front of an entire company, a teacher shaming a student in front of a classroom, a social media post that destroys someone's reputation, a partner revealing private information to gain control. So that can be, even though the reputation isn't a part of that classic academic definition, the harm and power imbalance can make one incident psychologically significant.
William Curb: Okay. Yeah. I can think of some of those. And you had some like some really surprising, not surprising, but very striking results from this survey, right? Yeah.
Brooke Schnittman: Yeah. So in the general population, 20 to 30% of children get bullied, right? And in studies that I've seen out there, 47% of children with ADHD are bullied. Now in my study, again, people self-selected themselves to take this study. So I just want to put that disclaimer out there, but 90.7% of the 162 people who filled out this survey were bullied as children. And these were adults filling it out throughout the world. 82% were bullied as adults of the 162 people who filled it out. 70% were bullied across the lifespan, both children and adults. And then as far as adulthood, 63% were bullied in the workplace. 54% of the adults who took the survey who were bullied as adults were also bullied in the relationships. And the surprising number is that 14.2% were bullied online. You would think it would be more, but the highest number of bullying incidents in adulthood was in the workplace. And then one of the other surprising things were that 22.4% of the adults who completed this became the bully, you know, these victims, right? Victims become victims. So half of the people sought out therapy and it missed the mark. And then they didn't understand again how to control the symptoms, how to cope with bullying until they understood that A was ADHD and they got the tools for it.
William Curb: Yeah. Yeah, I do think the becoming the bully thing is kind of interesting too, because it is something where I'm like, oh yeah, there are times that I've, you know, like these people, like in what I thought was a good natured manner. And then, you know, later they're like, that really didn't feel good.
And I'm like, I'm really sorry yet. That's not what my intention was. But that's also an interesting aspect too.
It's that a lot of this is the impact on you, not the intended, whatever the intended impact is. Yeah, I think there's a lot of, actually, I'm going to switch gears here because I'm curious about this. So what kind of bullying are we seeing in the workplace? Like is that, was that something that was you went into?
Brooke Schnittman: Micro management, gaslighting, chronic criticism, exclusion, being labeled too much, or having the ADHD traits weaponized against you in the workplace.
William Curb: Yeah, because that's what I was really thinking like that last one is probably what the comments about always being late or disorganization, so many things where it's just like, it is a very easy thing to criticize from the outside because you don't see the internal struggle. Exactly.
Brooke Schnittman: When I was a special education teacher in the school system, I was in the school system for 15 years. And we always said that people with invisible disabilities were more likely to be bullied from our observations than someone with a physical disability or a physical handicap, because children understand that there's something different about someone in a wheelchair or someone with a hearing impairment and has a unit, right? Or someone on purchase, but someone who has an invisible disability who looks like them, but is internalizing their symptoms because they don't understand themselves. The classmates are not getting the education for it or more likely to be a victim. Yeah.
William Curb: And it is just because I know I'll get an email about this. Even with visible disabilities, people still get bullied about those too. It's...
Brooke Schnittman: Oh, of course. Of course. I'm not saying that they don't.
William Curb: Yeah. Well, I didn't feel that way, but I...
Brooke Schnittman: I appreciate that you put that disclaimer out there. They definitely do. I just wanted to talk about the nuances between the two. Yeah.
William Curb: Well, it's just like whenever I have something, someone's like, oh yeah, no one would ask someone in a wheelchair to walk up the stairs, and then I'll get emails from people and they're like, that has 100% happened to me. And I'm like, that's terrible. And it's also... Yeah, there's so many things where people just be like, your disability is really inconvenient right now. Could we just not for a minute?
Brooke Schnittman: Just to go on a side, I mean, let's be honest, if you think of the streets, right? I'm from New York originally, and you're walking on a sidewalk, do you know that the curb and the sidewalk is made for strollers? It's not made for wheelchairs. So when we talk about discrimination and we talk about bullying, right, the world is not set up for someone necessarily in a wheelchair, even going into a bar or a place, right? There's not always ramps. So anyway, I digress, but I just also wanted to bring that.
William Curb: And it does like, yeah, that... And those are very visible. And then so, when you then go into like, oh yeah, these invisible disabilities, it makes sense that they don't get accounted for because they don't... People often don't know or just can't see, they forget.
It's very easy to... I mean, even with knowing my children, it's very easy to get frustrated when I know, it's like, go upstairs and get some socks and come right back downstairs. And then 10 minutes later, I'm like, where have you been? And they're like, I was just playing with some Legos up here.
Brooke Schnittman: That was way too many steps. Yeah.
William Curb: And I was like, hmm, it's very frustrating. But I know exactly why it's happening. Yep.
Brooke Schnittman: Yep. It is extremely frustrating as a NeuroDate Virgin parent, parenting, NeuroDate Virgin children, because you get it, but it's also, like, you have to regulate yourself, manage yourself, and then also work and co-regulate with them. It's a lot of work. I get it.
William Curb: Yeah, the number of times in my head where I'm like, why are you doing it like this? And then I'm like, it's because of the AD. Exactly.
Brooke Schnittman: Exactly. Exactly. The other day, so I am, I don't know if I mentioned, but I am a mom and a stepmom to NeuroDate Virgin children. And so I am a family of five ADH years. And the other day, I called my stepson and I was like, wake up dad, wake up dad. And I'm like, we're going to be late to soccer.
It was the soccer semifinals. And I said, wake him up. And when you're done waking him up, make sure he calls me.
Guess what happens? Never got a call? Never got a call. So I was ferociously calling all of them. And then I had to do the drop in Alexa to be like, Hey, is anyone there? Please make sure he's up. But yeah, too many steps.
William Curb: Yeah, it's very easy. And it's funny too, because it's the same thing happens where I'm like trying to like do like, I'm like, I'm gonna do this, this and this. And then I'm like, I didn't get to, I didn't even get to the middle step by, this was a mistake. It's very hard to be like, why am I asking my children to do what I have struggle to do myself?
Brooke Schnittman: 100%. 100%. And we are more likely to remember the first and the last and in the middle to forget about it.
William Curb: So very much got off track here. But I think, I mean, it is a important thing, because we're saying even as neurotypical adults, we have trouble seeing what's going on as neurodivergent signals, we have trouble seeing what's going on with other neurodivergent individuals, because we can't see what's going on in their head. And neurotypical often don't even have a frame of reference to why it would have been happening. Mm-hmm.
Brooke Schnittman: Yeah. So when you don't understand something, then that becomes confusing to you. So you just expect that they're going to be the same way. And they should have the same expectations, and that everyone should learn the same way, and everyone should have the, you know, the same functioning.
But that's where universal design comes in. And that's where the education piece really comes into play. And that's why people are bringing in experts to corporations about neurodiversity, because we weren't taught this growing up. I went to school for general education. I had one special education class that I took. Then I immediately went and got my masters in students with disabilities, because I was like, I need to know more about this. But I wouldn't have known jumping into the school system unless I independently did the research.
William Curb: And I do feel like it is getting, at least from when I've been talking to teachers, it's been getting better. But it is still something where it's a lot of, yeah, the teacher learning these things on their own because they need to survive for their classroom somehow. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and this is making me think about the idea of the monolith of the bully and bullying, where it is like, if I'm in this exact example here where, you know, I forget what I was saying. And if I'm, you know, in the break room talking to co-worker and they're like, I'm like, oh, and I just completely lose my train of thought.
I kind of like face out. And then like, I see them rolling their eyes because they're like, oh, well, doing that again. That might not feel exactly like bullying, but it is, and it might not have a huge impact, but it is something where it's like, oh, yeah, that is, that makes me not want to have these conversations. That makes me want to change my behavior here in ways that I can't really do.
Brooke Schnittman: 100%. It creates hypervigilance too, right? And your brain is scanning for that rejection. And then that causes a lot of rejection sensitivity, right? You over analyze people's tone after that. You anticipate the criticism for people who are in providing psychological safety to you, right? And then you people please to avoid conflict or you totally isolate. Yeah.
William Curb: And I can see this being like a big piece of like developing perfectionism as a coping mechanism. I know that was a, for to myself as a perfectionist in recovery because it was a long time was just like, oh yeah, this needs to be perfect. And it's, while I have figured out not to do that because it's not a healthy coping mechanism, it's still like, oh, it's still there where I'm like, oh, this is what I want to do.
Brooke Schnittman: Exactly. You have to. And then as ADHD years, we are constantly on the go. We're not seeing life as we know it peripheral vision unless we are prompted to slow down and reflect and have met a cognition. So if you are constantly scanning and thinking and doing, then you're forgetting or not realizing you're being a people, please are in the moment because you're not analyzing it. Yeah, absolutely.
William Curb: It's It's frustrating because you want to be like your best self, but at the same time, it's yeah, without that metacognition piece, it's very hard to realize what you're doing. Correct.
Brooke Schnittman: That pause and pivot just isn't there unless we get that external accountability and then eventually internal accountability, but it's practice, a lot of practice. It's a big weakness of many of us.
William Curb: Yeah. I can think of too many times where like, yeah, after the event, I was just like, man, that did not go how I wanted it to go and I don't know why.
Brooke Schnittman: Exactly. And then you talk it out with someone else and they ask you the right questions and you still might be confused, but then eventually it might pop or maybe it doesn't. And I think that's also part of the struggle too. Like, we're so confused on why certain things are happening and we're not being educated or people don't have microscopes on us 24 seven when we're in school and work, right? So if we're not getting the education or understanding, then we're constantly going to be making the same mistakes. And I don't want to say that we're always making mistakes, but we're constantly going to be doing the same thing because we're just beating ourselves up.
And because we are then like in this chronic stress state, the nervous system again goes into threat mode and our executive function shuts down, right? There's no focus. There's no initiation. There's no memory. There's no confidence. And then how does that impact your work when there's no safety?
William Curb: Yeah, I can't think of any time where that would be helpful. No. And it also makes me think about this idea of masking too, I think is definitely something that, yeah, because we're talking about perfectionism and people policing, but then also this aspect of masking where you're trying to mold yourself to be the person that you think that they want to be.
Brooke Schnittman: Exactly. Exactly. And when we mask, I actually had this conversation yesterday with someone on my podcast, everything seems fine, right? You dissociate, you're going in the flow, you're riding the wave, right? But you're never really feeling the feelings. So you don't work on yourself and you don't progress and you don't feel because you are constantly stuck in this chameleon-like state of just pretending to be someone you're not. And you're not learning because you're spending so much time trying to pretend like you are everyone else and model other people's behaviors.
William Curb: Yeah. And there is some aspects like, oh, this is... Survival. Yeah, it's a survival aspect. And then figuring out, oh, yeah, these are good. But it is very detrimental when you're doing it at the cost of who you are.
Brooke Schnittman: Yep. And that's the biggest thing that I have noticed in the results of this study is that people have done therapy. I've done therapy before. But before I knew I had ADHD, I just got more anxious from therapy because all I was doing was talking about my problems and I didn't know what it was. That makes a lot of sense. Right? And I'm like, oh, I just buried that. I masked, right? I dissociated. And now I have to talk about these things? No.
What is this? But once people become aware of their ADHD and they get the right ADHD-informed help, then they can make better, more informed choices. They can learn more about themselves. They can understand what they value, what their strengths are, what their intrinsic motivation is, how they can bring those strengths to friendships and relationships. And then once they become more confident, then they could have better friendships, right? These friendships are really hard for ADHD. So if you have one reciprocal friend who lists you up and understands you and you don't have to constantly mask, that can make all the world a difference.
William Curb: Yeah, absolutely. Because it's one of the questions I was thinking about a lot the last year or so is I've used myself quite a bit as an introvert. And the question then becomes, like, am I really that introverted or have I been masking so much in social situations that they don't feel good and they don't serve any sort of purpose for me other than being like, oh, this is draining and I hate it?
Brooke Schnittman: Very possible. There's been a lot of talk about introversion and neurodivergence recently. I'm curious that it's very possible. My situation is the complete opposite. I was a people pleaser, so I thought I was extroverted. I wanted everyone to like me. Let me talk.
Let me overshare. Let me put myself down at the expense of people laughing so I could get attention. So I always thought I was an extrovert. But once I become more of myself, I'm actually an introvert.
William Curb: Yeah, and I'm like, I don't think I'm extroverted. I just think I'm less introverted than I might think I am. It's very possible. But yeah, because my mask also does all those same things where I'm very much a people pleaser and I'm very trying to be the guy. But it's a lot of unpacking to be like, oh, I don't want to be the guy. That's not who I want to be.
Brooke Schnittman: Yeah, yeah, I hear you. And I think the unpacking and the reflection and really like sitting with it is the most helpful thing, right? Because I also had this conversation yesterday when we are neurodivergent, we burn out more frequently. So we don't notice when we're about to burn out very often because we are so stuck in being on the go. And then so when we burn out, then there's more time for reflection.
But at the same time, when you're burned out, you have low dopamine and you're in shutdown and it's really hard to think, right? So then you're going to compare yourself to others. You're going to feel rejected. So it might not be the best psychological state to start trying to reflect.
William Curb: Yeah, trying to get yourself to be regulated enough to reflect is difficult. And so it is, but it is something like kind of worth doing.
Brooke Schnittman: Oh, definitely worth doing. But if we can try to do it more regularly rather than waiting until we're in full shutdown mode, is what I'm saying.
William Curb: Oh, yeah, yeah, 100%. Yeah, I just was just being like, yeah, it's definitely worth doing. And it's not. You got it. It was just trying to, as for listeners, being like, you got to work at it. You can't. It's oftentimes I will have things where I'm just like, let's go. We can just do whatever we need to do. Yeah.
Brooke Schnittman: No, this is work. This is not easy. And we have a lot of work to do, unfortunately, and fortunately for neurodivergent people, because we know that almost all of us have experienced some form of trauma, whether it be a small T or a big T, and that impacts our nervous system. So we need to rewire our nervous system by doing these restorative things like EMDR or nervous system regulation, interfamily systems, and also be proactive in setting up our minds in a way that works for us, having a menu of things that we know regulate us, making sure that we set boundaries, all the things that all of you have heard, right? But we have to work extra hard to remind ourselves to do those and slow down.
William Curb: Yeah, because there is, I mean, I don't want to do work a lot of the time. And it's just like, I'd like this to just fix itself. And it's like, that's not how this works. But it is, if I want things to be better, I have to put the effort into doing them.
Brooke Schnittman: Yeah, and I think that's what we were talking about before with the masking, right? When you mask and you dissociate, it can feel easier because you're not doing the work, even though it's very challenging to mask.
But once you unmask and you stop dissociating, dissociating can be good for some things, because again, that's a survival mechanism. But when you start feeling, it's work. Feeling your feelings is really hard, and it's not linear. It's not easy.
William Curb: Yeah, and there's, I think, a lot of, especially in this conversation with bullying, being like, oh, these are, I have these maladaptive coping mechanisms that I've developed to deal with the fact that I've been bullied, or in currently being bullied there. It's a survival mechanism, but it's not necessarily a mechanism for thriving.
Brooke Schnittman: Absolutely, absolutely. And also, we need to learn and identify, even as adults, because it's more covert as adults, as we spoke about before, that this, in fact, is unacceptable behavior. You are being bullied.
For me, I knew I was being bullied as a child because my parents told me, and then so I recognized certain behaviors. But as an adult in a workplace or in a relationship, it looks very different. So we have to understand what's happening for us to make real change.
William Curb: Yeah, that is like, so what are some of the things that people can do for this change? Because I had this conversation with my daughter a few weeks ago, where they have bullying units in school, and I'm like, oh, that's interesting. Like, how does that work for you? She's like, they're boring and the kids that would need to hear it don't listen.
Brooke Schnittman: Yeah, exactly. It's more about educate, like it should be about education for the people who don't understand other people. That's where real change works. When I was in the school system, there was Elveas, and that was worldwide, and there was a bully reduction program, and they talked about how there's more power in bystanders that can stick up for the victim over anything else, over the bully, because more people are more help and then have more power. So, but really it's education, education for the people who don't understand, but also education for you as a victim to say, these are people that are nice. These people are not. These people have my values. These people are going to lift me up. These are the people that I want to spend my time with, because we know that we're the average of the five people we spend the most time with.
William Curb: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's, I think my dog counts for that.
Brooke Schnittman: Yes, your dog does count for that. Pets are included. And she's a neurotic man.
William Curb: I was just like, oh yeah, I was just like, she's right there.
Brooke Schnittman: And she's- They're also included for body doubling, so it's a win-win.
William Curb: And then what about like, as an adult when you're being bullied, what are some of the things you can do to kind of mitigate?
Brooke Schnittman: So my personal experience and what I saw in this survey is really just again, having a reciprocal friend can change everything. So there are tons of strategies out there like talk back or take the power away from the bully. Like say so if someone bullies you or say thank you, because it takes the power away.
Don't engage, like those kind of things, right? So there's lots of one-liners, but the problem is, is that because of our ADHD, since we have all these working memory challenges, it's going to be hard in the moment to remember that, especially when we're in a survival state. And we said our executive function shuts down. So to seek out and know safe people, no friends, be able to be lifted up. Because if we're constantly trying, and I know we can't always choose, especially in the workplace, who we surround ourselves with, but if we can choose our partners responsibly, if we can choose certain people in the workplace, or certain friends that are going to be nice and they're going to value us, and they're going to lift us up and be reciprocal friends, that is going to change your confidence level. I think that is the biggest thing.
And to also get the ADHD informed help, whether it be therapy, coaching, just to understand the situation, understand the way your brain is working, understand the maladaptive behaviors, and understand the situations of friendships and dynamics and see, talk it out. Because a lot of us are verbal processors, so it's helpful to be asked the right questions to understand dynamics.
William Curb: Yeah, I often find with the, if I'm just holding on to my head, it gets into weird loops, where I'm not actually finding solutions. It needs to either, it needs to get out of my head somehow. Sure, sure.
Brooke Schnittman: So yeah, there are the reframes that you can do with like dread blue escape plans or CBT, and that's all well and good for independent pieces. So you can switch like, oh, this is just rejection sensitivity. This isn't real. I'm creating the story.
Let me reframe it. And that can help in a moment. But also, I think there's, like when you don't know of a certain thing and you haven't experienced it before, that's where someone who is an expert in the fields can really help you. Yeah.
William Curb: And it is, I do think it's like in the workplace, it is a very hard thing, especially if it's like a boss, because like we often be like, yeah, you don't have to accept bullying, but what?
Brooke Schnittman: Yeah, so I will tell you my personal experience because I can only speak from that, right? Right now. And I can also tell you what I saw in the survey, but my personal experience is I have worked for several bullies and I've also co-worked with bullies, right? And eventually, right, all the strategies did not work. So I had to leave. And that was a choice I made. And it was the best choice that I could ever made. I was lucky enough to be able to make that choice and move and go to Florida and understand myself and then be able to help people with ADHD become a coach. But it doesn't always go away.
And sometimes, if you're lucky enough to be able to make that hard decision to leave a situation where you are being bullied and it's impacting your life, your self-esteem, you're constantly being excluded, you're being yelled at, I mean, some people have to get to that point of leaving. I remember one of my bosses picked up the phone, we were in the same building, I got a call, she put me on speaker with my equal counterpart and a lesser counterpart. And I say that because I was an administrator, so she put a teacher next to her and an assistant director of special education next to her.
And I was an assistant director of special education. And she started screaming at me on the phone, screaming. So in that situation, what I did, obviously, was I froze and I didn't really say anything. I hung up the phone and then I went into her office after father two were gone. And I said, don't you ever speak to me like that in front of other people? And don't you ever speak to me like that, period.
Now, that was so hard to do. Of course, I called everyone and their mother and I said, what do I do? But I was able to get to like after some time, I got to a commerce date and I was able to say that and she never yelled at me again. She bullied me in other ways, but she never yelled at me again. So you do have a voice, but sometimes it is so toxic that you need to leave.
William Curb: Yeah, that is sorry I had to go through that. That sounds terrible.
Brooke Schnittman: Thank you. Thank you. And it's, you know, the planning and the prioritization of a job interview is so hard to begin with. You know, sometimes we're just so excited about the new job, right?
We'll take it like someone wants us. That dopamine is intense, right? Like, oh, I'm good enough for this job. Yes, I got that promotion.
Yes, I'm going to take it no matter what. But if we can, again, reflect and slow down and think about, okay, can we interview the employees of this place? Do they have a neurodivergent program? Do they, how is your boss? How are the people that you work with on your team? You know, what kind of understanding of neurodiversity do they have? It'd be helpful.
William Curb: Yeah, absolutely. Because we don't want a victim blame, but we also don't want to put ourselves in that, if we can avoid putting ourselves in that situation, it's all the better. Absolutely.
Brooke Schnittman: And then, you know, just a side note, of course, there's relationships, like romantic relationships. And I once interviewed Melissa Orlov. I remember her telling me that when you're in a romantic relationship, you really don't know the person until 24 to 48 months, even sometimes three years. Imagine that for someone with ADHD to slow down and not get serious with someone until three years. I married my husband within a year. So, so now, right? Like, it's hard. It's really hard. So, we have to know these things to make informed decisions.
William Curb: I remember hearing one comic one time talk about like, they're like, oh, yeah, you know, like, they were currently divorced, but like, they're like, yeah, you know, in, you know, like the first weeks of the relationship, they were sitting in Rocky, I could have left then. But I felt like, well, we'll stick it through. And then he's like, you know, a year in and he's like, I've put in the time and I don't want it.
So I'm gonna do it. And then he's like, I could have left then, you know, and then we got engaged. I could have left then when we first got married, I could have left then then we had kids. That's when things fell apart.
So, and I'm just like, oh, it's so interesting to think about like, there's like some cost fallacy we have in relationships where it's like, well, I can't leave because I've already put all this effort.
Brooke Schnittman: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And that's the same thing in jobs too, right? I did all my training in this. I already know everyone there. I've already been onboarded. I have 10 year, how can I do that? I can't leave. But then you cried. This happened to me. I cried when I got signed in by the board, you know, like before even officially started. So yeah, the signs can be there.
William Curb: Yeah. And it's it's so hard to also like predict where what's going to be the right move because you're like, Oh, are things going to get better? Well, we should always go if there's nothing moving towards things getting better, they're not going to.
Brooke Schnittman: Yeah. And usually when there's a performance plan there, it's already a little too late. But yes, if it's not getting any better and that you don't have the data points and your body is not feeling good being around, then that's questionable. But again, as neurodivergent people who don't like reflect and don't get the tools and are, you know, have lower self-esteem because of all of the years of trauma and people pleasing, then we're like, Oh wait, but like maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm the problem. So I just need to change myself and then, you know, things are going to get better. Just change me to make it myself adopt to this.
William Curb: Yeah. If I just act perfectly at all times, then no one will know.
Brooke Schnittman: Yeah. If I don't say anything, if I stay late till the janitors leave at night, everything's going to be fine. I'll just like have no life outside of work and I will do it all. Yeah. Yeah.
William Curb: And just thinking in regards to relationships, I just want to remind people like, yeah, you can improve those, communicate with your partner. If you sometimes, as we were talking about bullying is unintentional, it's just the dynamic that, you know, they grew up in or something. So 100%.
Brooke Schnittman: I'm glad you said that. And since you did say that, if it's okay to share, my husband and I have been together for six years, maybe a little bit more. And he has a traumatic upbringing. And I also have a lot of trauma, right? So we had some really tough times, almost got divorced last year. But once he worked on himself and I worked on myself separately, and there was nervous system regulation, and there was awareness, our communication has never been more solid. Like all bets were against us. So yes, we did all that sticking with it.
It was really, really, really hard. And we could have easily given up. But the reason why we didn't give up is because we both knew there was something else. And luckily, the work that he's doing is working like immediately because of awareness. And that also is helping me understand him more and us communicating better as partners.
William Curb: Yeah, because we all have our own baggage and our own ways of processing things. And so oftentimes, as neurodivergent individuals, we have a really hard time asking for what we need because we're on that people pleaser train. And so there's no part of people pleasing that says, what can you do for me? Exactly.
Brooke Schnittman: And my husband's very direct. And he needs me to be direct with him, but I'm the people pleaser. So I used to be like, well, what are your thoughts on this instead of being direct? Like, I want this. I am going to do this. What do you know, like I always frame things as a question. And that was very confusing. Yeah. Yeah.
William Curb: It took a long time for me to realize that if I want something from my wife, I have to ask for it. I cannot just strongly send mental signals. Like that's not communication.
It's not going to read your minds. Exactly. So much so with my children too, where like, I'm like, oh, if I just communicate, like, hey, what you're doing is really frustrating me right now. We have about a minute before I just lose my mind. Let's stop and back up. And I'm like, I am still regulated now. I will not be in five minutes.
Brooke Schnittman: And that is, that is communicative behavior. And you're not in protest behavior where, okay, you thought they can read your mind. Now I'm going to storm off and, you know, be silent. Right. Like that doesn't help anyone.
So the fact that you've learned how to regulate your body and when it's unregulated, and you know when to communicate is very important when you're working with other neurodivergence, children and adults.
William Curb: Yeah. Well, I just when I was like, I can feel this coming. And just like the time at first time, I like tried to be like, hey, I'm, I cannot handle what you're doing right now.
And then like them being like, okay. And then they went off and did something else. And it was just like, or, you know, they, I think this was like involved like cleaning rooms and they were just like, throw in fits and being like, we're not going to have this happen. I'm like, things are going to be real uncool here in a minute. And they're like, oh, I don't want that. I will try. And I'm like, that's all I really wanted. Yeah.
Brooke Schnittman: Right. But you had, you talked about it. And you understand their intentions and they understand your intentions. So communication are two messages being received, right? If two people aren't receiving the same message, then you're not communicating. Yeah. Yeah.
William Curb: And it's much better than just being like, Hey, there's going to be consequences. You know, in the big consequences, it's playing like, no, I'm going to be really upset. And that's what's going on. It's not like you're going to lose your time or something.
Brooke Schnittman: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Right. And like, I know with parenting also, you know, it's better to be like, if when rather than what you just said, like, you're going to lose this, right? Throwing consequences, better to partner with them. And to explain like, when you do this, then you get this rather than the punishment aspect, but it's so hard when you're in the moment.
William Curb: Yeah. Because I don't want to be the bully parent. Like that is something I know a lot of neurodivergent kids deal with because they're like, oh, but their parents go, oh, I figured out how to get you to do what I want you to do.
Brooke Schnittman: Manipulation. Yeah. It's hard. It's all hard.
William Curb: All right. So I was wondering if you had any final thoughts that you wanted to leave the audience with.
Brooke Schnittman: Yeah. You know, for most people in the general population, bullying declines with age. And unfortunately, in this sample of adults with ADHD, it didn't. So awareness is everything, but it's also not about staying stuck in the past. It's about reclaiming control, like rebuilding confidence and choosing environments that really fit your nervous system. So join the communities of people who get you, understand what's going on, and know you're not alone in all of this. That's the biggest takeaway that I hope people get out of our conversation.
William Curb: Thank you so much. I think this is a really important per conversation for people to have, because we don't realize it's happening. It's just, and we blame ourselves.
Brooke Schnittman: Yeah, we do. We do. And then it becomes systemic in us. And we're conditioned to feel that we are a certain thing, right? And we identify as that. So we can change the narrative.
William Curb: Well, thank you again. And I'm sure people will get so much out of this.
This Episode's Top Tips
When faced with a threat or bullying, the ADHD brain often experiences a physiological "freeze" where the parasympathetic nervous system takes over. It’s important for us to understand that we’re not always in control of this shift, and not to be self-critical about how we react in the moment and give ourselves grace to do better in the future.
To effectively manage a bullying situation, we have to understand the framework: repetition, power imbalance, and harm. Recognizing that a power imbalance can be "social status" or "neurotypical norms" rather than just a boss-employee hierarchy allows us to identify why a situation feels "off".
Many ADHDers stay in bullying situations because the executive function required to leave (interviewing, onboarding, starting over) feels more overwhelming than the bullying itself. Shifting the perspective to "body data"—how your nervous system feels around that person—can be a more reliable indicator than your internal pro/con list.
Since bullying often triggers a survival response that shuts down your executive functions, you can't rely on logic in the moment. To combat this, Brooke suggests focusing on nervous system regulation tools (like EMDR or grounding) to help your body feel safe again. You have to train your brain before the situation occurs so that "doing X when Y happens" becomes a more automatic habit.