Learn Who You Are and Do It On Purpose with Alex Campbell and Katie Friedman

Written By William Curb

Today I’m talking with Katie Friedman and Alex Campbell, the brains and heart behind Gold Mind Academy, an ICF-accredited, ADHD-friendly training program, crafted to support ADHDers on their journey to success. And their new book, “ADHD… Now What?”, aims to give you the tools you need to find a coach that is right for you and how to advocate for your needs. And honestly, I love this approach to the book because while there are a lot of ADHD coaches out there, it’s important to find someone who is going to work best with you.

So who are these people?

Katie is a long time educator turned ICF-accredited ADHD coach and also a TEDx speaker.

Alex is also an ICF-accredited ADHD coach, but also a psychotherapist and one of the first children in the UK to be diagnosed with ADHD back in 1990.

In our conversation today, we explore what coaching really looks like beyond surface-level goal setting. Alex and Katie break down how understanding your strengths can lead to better self-advocacy and less burnout. We also talk about survival mode, how internalized ableism and societal “shoulds” trip us up, and why connection, with ourselves and with others, is essential for building sustainable strategies.

I had a great time with this conversation and it gave me a lot to think about, so I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

William Curb: Well, I'm so excited to have you guys with me here today and Alex, you're in New Zealand, Katie, you're in the UK. That's a big difference in time zones as we were discussing right before the show. It's really interesting that you guys are working together and if you've written this book, can you guys tell me a little bit about your story here and how this came to be?

Alex Campbell: We were introduced by a mutual ADHD colleague, ADHD coach colleague. We were talking about training and the colleague has said, oh, the two of you are talking about similar things. Maybe you two should meet. We did. This was back in the UK when I was in the UK and that's kind of where it began, really, which was our love of training and wanting to train people.

Katie Friedman: And we've never stopped talking ever since. It just goes on and on and on.

William Curb: As proper ADHD conversations do, they just...

Katie Friedman: But when we're interested.

Alex Campbell: When we're interested. Why was I talking again? Can't remember.

William Curb: Yeah, this also brings up this idea too. But so you guys are into coaching, but it's hard to decide why you want to go into coaching. Like why just not just do medication, why not do therapy? Coaching is this other place. What do you guys find is so important about having coaching as a prong in how you treat ADHD?

Alex Campbell: I spent nearly six years training in post-grad to become a psychotherapist in London. And actually, when I wanted to niche my therapy practice, there was no training for ADHD at the time. And the only accredited training was in the coaching world. And I was like, what? And I had a massive chip in my shoulder that coaching was this sort of woo-woo thing. Until I actually got into coach training. And I realized there was their missing piece in the years of becoming a therapist. Which was looking at the good stuff. Like I'd spent all this time looking at all the crap.

And I suddenly realized there was a missing piece of the puzzle for me, which is my strengths. Which was, and what about the question about what's right with me and why? As opposed to just looking at what's wrong with me and why? And I realized that this empowerment piece of maybe I have all that's within me. I just haven't found it yet to peace. Was a huge shift for me. It's just a very different way of thinking and working. It's not that it's better or worse than therapy. There's definitely, as someone who is a licensed therapist, there is value in therapy.

But there's something about how, when for many of us, especially when we're late diagnosed or just late discovering our differences, we spend so much time going over all the crap stuff. It's revolutionary for us to start to look at the good stuff. Like it's transformation or to look at, where you mean I have strengths, you mean I have these brilliant things. Yes, you do. Right. And coaching is one of these incredible ways in which we can find that stuff. That's why we're called Goldmined, finding your gold. Right. The gold that's always been there and coaching can be one of these really powerful ways in which that happens. So for me, it's like it can serve as a support to therapy or as an addition to therapy or as a standalone to therapy. It's not replacing it.

Katie Friedman: I would say as someone who's kind of experienced both, and I obviously never trained as a therapist, but I'd had some. I think a lot of us, if we're neurodivergent, have had experiences one to one that haven't really fit us. And there's nothing worse than being in an intimate space where you still feel like you're not doing it right or it's not quite landing. Or you're having to try harder or you're having to educate in the space, which is my experience. When I was learning about my neurodivergence, I was educating my own therapist until I drew the line and went, I think this is a no from me.

This isn't okay. And you need to go do some work. But I think for me, what I like about coaching is the accelerated sense of momentum. You know, we all want tomorrow, yesterday. And a lot of us have wasted decades of not knowing who we are. So the thought of going into therapy for seven years to figure it out is like, hell no for a lot of us. And I'm not, again, I'm someone who blends, I think we take a therapeutic approach in coaching in the kind of work that we do.

And I also really value therapy for taking certain things to therapy. And I think you can get loads of benefit. But for me, just something about self agency. And there's also something about demystifying a process. I think this idea that you don't tell anyone what you're doing because it's somehow magical, I really debunk that in ADHD coaching. This is about you, you learn the tools and then go coach yourself.

William Curb: Well, I mean, with that in mind, what can people kind of expect to actually do at coaching? Because I mean, I know I have this question from people with all sorts of things. What do you do at therapy? But this is also with coaching, they're like, what do you do here? Because as you say, you're not telling them what to do. It's kind of a collaborative process.

Katie Friedman: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the thing to say is there's different types of therapy. There's different types of coaching. There's probably like 400 types of both. So there's clearly going to be overlap. What I would say that in Goldmined, what we don't do is the sort of transactional. So the idea of, you know, what's your goal? How do you want to get there? And let's just talk about actions and, you know, just doing all the time. For us, I think there's a real value in bringing the whole self, the who of the person, the identity piece, because that's often where what's actually holding us back from doing a lot of the things that we want to do is rooted.

So we're kind of quite into going into the transformation or the deep. So what do you do? You bring whatever you want to bring, because ADHD is your whole self, every waking and sleeping moment. You can't really compartmentalize. So you choose which part you want to bring. And we kind of talk about having strands or things that are going on in the background. One of those things is building certainty. How do I work? And we use models to accelerate that certainty that a lot of us haven't had for decades. We talk about nuance. Our brains would love to have a really, you know, black and white set of rules. I do this, I do that, that's how I roll.

And it doesn't work like that. It's really nuanced. We're situational, we're intersectional. It's like, oh, now I've got to learn all of that. Great. Once we've built that, this kind of understanding that's deep and, you know, based on lots of different versions of us in different situations, it becomes easier to connect to yourself and to forgive yourself and to build this idea of acceptance. Lots of people have often been telling neurodivergent people to be kind to themselves. Which is just like another thing we're not getting right. And this is actually making it useful. Like, oh, now I understand why I'm doing what I'm doing. Now I can start, you know, accepting, forgiving, protecting.

And so this is a big thing that we're doing in ADHD coaching is bringing ourselves back to ourselves, our experience, our feelings, our strengths, and we're validating ourselves in that way. And once we get that really in place and kind of established, we can self-advocate. Self-advocacy is really easy once you get those other things in place. Like, speedy brains, inter-solutions and making connections. Like once they've got the stuff, it's fast. But until they get that kind of love and connection to self, it's really hard to have boundaries. It's really hard to see yourself and your value. That's kind of what we're doing.

Alex Campbell: Most clients, all of us, have kind of drunk the Kool-Aid of the deficit model, which is I'm a little bit broken or there's something that needs fixing. And it shows up subtly where, you know, classically a lot of clients come to me going, I want to be more organized. Like that's a theme that shows up. And what often they're really asking is, I want to be more neurotypical. And so for us, it's about identity first, strategy second in a way. Like really get to know you. And we boil down ADHD coaching to a Dolly Parton quote, which is know you and do you on purpose.

Which is when you can really understand yourself, accept yourself as Katie said, you're far more able to then advocate and make good decisions that work for you and your brain. But it comes from this awareness piece and this clarity piece on, I really am starting to get me now, which is very powerful because I am now starting to trust myself. That's a big shift for clients to go. Do you know what? I did something that was a bit different based on this and it really worked. And I'm like looking at them going, and what's that like? And they're like weird, but nice.

You know, it's like, oh, is this what trust is? And I'm like, well, how does it feel? And they're like, it feels small, but it also feels big, you know, like this one moment that I have something shifted for me, but this one moment that I'm realizing I'm accepting of or I'm seeing me in a different way on my strength. So I can see the ADHD and I can see this. Wow, this, the divergent brain goes off into all sorts of places like, well, if I could do this here, then what if I could do it here and if I could do it here? And it's, that's exciting. It's really exciting because that's when someone's really awake to themselves.

Katie Friedman: Also think, you know, we let we learn our strengths, but we also learn like the anatomy of the strength. What we haven't said yet is need. So the have peace. Like, so if I want to be this strength, what do I need to have in place to be it? Because I think this is a huge part. Like when we come from not knowing and decades of not understanding, we end up like over identifying with behaviors that aren't actually who we are. They're who we are in survival. Right. So I'll give you an example of like, I don't know, screeching at my children, you know, wailing at them to do what they're told and being powerless and then having a tante.

That's nice, isn't it? That's a nice image. But I started to see it as who I was. This is just who I am. I'm going to have to accept that. It's like, no, turns out, you know, if I look after myself in a different way, I can be a different version. But until I know that this is what I need in order to be, you know, fun mum, I need XYZ or in order to be calm mum or someone with perspective and judgment, you know, I need to resource myself. It's not just going to happen because I go, oh, I'm going to have to try harder and persecute myself, you know? That's the old way.

William Curb: I've had so many times where I've been working on some sort of problem in my life and I'm like, why can't I just do this, this way? And then like, there's like light bulb in my head. It's because you have ADHD and I'm like, oh, yeah, that's right. I have to do this in a way that works for my brain. I can't just do this in a strictly neurotypical fashion that I think should work.

Katie Friedman: Yeah, should. That old chestnut. Yeah.

William Curb: Yeah. Yeah. It's a big one.

Alex Campbell: That should is so tied into our interest, why a brain, right? Like the shoulds, the musts, the ought tos. Katie mentioned survival mode a moment ago. Like this is essentially, it's a theme in our book. It's this concept of survival mode, which is what does ADHD look like if you've been living decades and decades of not knowing your ADHD? What does, how are we adapted without realizing that this is how our brain is wired, right? And there is normally a truckload of shoulds and musts and oughts and have tos as a way of surviving because in a way that generates negative interest. It actually becomes a motivational system, which gets our executive function fired up. But it's like the really inefficient fuel source, like it's going to cost us something greatly. We're going to burn out.

William Curb: Like maladaptive strategies are just something that we kind of like, oh, this is going to be, it works. But I have very few issues with being late, which is like, oh, this is great. Down in ADHD problem, except it's mainly fuelled by anxiety about being late. And I'm like, that's a bad thing though.

Alex Campbell: Right. And the thing is that even if we know it, like sometimes we don't fully realize the cost of it until we have literally broken down at the side of the world and we're like, wow, how have I got here? You know, it's like, well, we can see this coming, darling. When you have that certainty that Katie talked about, you start to realize the things that we're doing that aren't serving us because you're going, ah, it's almost like when we have that meltdown at the end of the day, that was predictable now because I had three backs about meetings. I didn't eat lunch.

And now I completely lost it trying to cook dinner for the kids or whatever. Yup, this was predictable. Not, oh goodness, it's my ADHD. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, we can start to understand why this happened. That's so helpful to understand that why, because for me, a lot of what my clients say, and what a lot of students say at GoldMind, even after our first module is, I'm stopping asking the question, is this me or is this ADHD? It's more like, no, I can see the ADHD now and I'm doing something about it. It's very, very powerful.

Katie Friedman: I think it's like certainty and clarity creates choice and connection. That's a really big deal for us.

William Curb: Yeah, because there's too much time where we have this idea like, this is ADHD over here and this is myself over here and we interact, but it is just like we are completely attached. It's not, I can't separate myself. I've used this metaphor of like, I'm trying to climb a mountain and my ADHD is my mountain climbing partner and we are tied together. We cannot go in different directions. We can't do other things. But that metaphor even fails when I'm going like, well, yeah, but we're still one person. We can't separate.

Katie Friedman: And that's what great ADHD coaching is about. It's about integrating self and you need help. That's hard to do on your own. It really is and, you know, pausing is hard anyway, but pausing with a partner is fun. It can be fun.

Alex Campbell: There are so many neurodivergent people like wants know, is this me or is this ADHD or is this dyslexia or is this autism? I think there's something about the drive for the why in these bits, partly because there's been a massive big question mark in the lives around the why of a lot of things. Like why is this harder for me, seemingly harder for me than it is for everybody else? You know, this seemingly simple, I'm using air quotes here, task that is for everybody else but not for me. And I think that this idea of integration, we can't split the bit of me that's ADHD and the bit of me that isn't. It's one integrated brain. Right. And I think there's something about when we can get beyond that to the needs, as Kate is talking about, that's when things really do start to change for us.

William Curb: Think about this too, because I know I was late diagnosed and so that like has that thing, but you were diagnosed fairly young, correct?

Alex Campbell: Yeah. So I was one of the first 40 kids in the UK to be diagnosed of ADHD back in 1990. And yes, I think it was a huge privilege to have been diagnosed then. And I got a lot of support, but a lot of the support at the time was based on what we knew of research at the time, which was around. If Alex got good grades, that would be the greatest determinant of his success. And so all of the resources was poured into academia, not around socialization, not around my sense of identity or self and the whole idea of emotional regulation, that just wasn't language that we used in the 90s, especially in the UK, right? Barely used now.

Katie Friedman: Right. I was going to say.

William Curb: It's at least been acknowledged now, but it's got a ways to go.

Alex Campbell: The thing is, is that emotional, like even having it as a way to try and understand, say, hyperactivity, impulsivity and inattentiveness, at least there is some more language now. Back then it was just, you're just really hyper. Like the kind of language was even more limited. And so it was an interesting time to be four years old in the 90s with a label of the only kid in the school with ADHD. But for me, I think it's been a non-linear journey because I genuinely thought I grew out of my ADHD when I left school. I went into a very, very busy career in the film industry.

It was very stimulating, very interesting. And I had multiple cycles of burnout because I was masking and self-medicating. And it was only really when I burnt out of the industry and retrained to become a therapist that I re-engaged with ADHD because I was doing really well in lots of parts of therapy. But writing the essays, I was just failing every single one. And it was a friend, a colleague of mine, he said, do you not think this is to do with ADHD, Alex? And I was like, I literally told him to f off. I'm like, I've grown out of that crap. And then it stayed with me. It was like, niggling.

Oh, why is this comment that he's made? And I did one of the self-assessments and sure enough, it's always been there, Alex. So that was my kind of re-entry into it. But it's been interesting navigating the past few decades, knowing and not knowing, if that makes sense, like thinking that I didn't. And then when I got re-diagnosed as an adult, it did feel like almost like a re-birth thing, in a way, like it was quite, well, within the matter of weeks, I went from failing essays to getting distinctions.

Part of that was because of all of the work that was poured into me in academia as a kid. The other part of it was, I was starting to take some meds that was really helping me get the essays written. Right. Before that, I didn't have the same level of support. And now I was starting to support myself around essay writing. Is there any wonder that I started to get better grades? So that's my story, I guess. Kate is a bit different.

William Curb: Because I was thinking like, oh yeah, because I have this mental image that the separation of myself from ADHD is because of these 20 years I had in my life of just thinking of them, thinking of myself as one way and then I have this new like, oh, this is a new thing I'm adding on. But it is interesting to think, yeah, even with the early diagnosis, it is not necessarily something that you have fully integrated, especially given what you had available.

Alex Campbell: Yeah, I'd say so. And in a way, that brings us back to coaching, which is coaching was, I spent so many years of my life in therapy anyway. And it was the coaching that really started to help me integrate being neurodivergent into my whole identity. That was what did really surprise me actually, was how fast I was able to get more clear on who I was actually. Coaching did that for me.

William Curb: And so you guys really focus on the strength-based approach. The two thoughts I have here is that I know I've talked to a lot of people about strengths and they go, I don't have any strengths. I've had that same feeling too. And it can be hard to acknowledge what you're good at, because we have this like disconnect between something being easy and something that we're good at. And it's like, well, maybe restated that it's easy because I am good at it.

And that can be a little bit hard for some people, I know, because I do excel quite a lot at writing and it's something I'm fairly good at. I have trouble saying I'm good at it, but it is like, I've had enough people tell me, I'm like, okay, I can acknowledge that this is a strength. But it's still like, it comes fairly easily a lot of the time. And so I'm like, oh, that can't be something that I'm good at. That's easy.

Katie Friedman: I think we're hardwired to only value effort. Like that's partly because challenge is interesting. But it's also because that's what like the Kool-Aid around us that we're imbibing from culture is, you know, unless you've tried really hard, it's not of any value. And this is that kind of productivity drive that particularly in capitalist societies is actually really damaging because if all we're doing is trying harder, trying harder, trying harder, this is just, it's an inviting drama. And actually, when you're late diagnosed, trying to switch from the only thing of value is something that's really, really hard to what if I could value what is easeful and acknowledge what I do have, as well as what, you know, how I could lean into things I find harder.

I was a leader in education. And one of the things I struggled with was to acknowledge my strengths. But as a leader, that meant that I expected everybody else could do what I could do. Now, imagine I've got spiky strengths. So I'd be like, what are you doing? You know, I'd be incredulous if you couldn't do what I could do because I was like, no one cares about that. And then if they couldn't, it was like, wow, well, that's just toxic. It's horrible. Could you imagine having a leader like that above you like, but I see it all the time in coaching now, you know, that the people just dismiss what they're already really good at. And this becomes another reason why we can't see ourselves clearly and self validate.

Alex Campbell: I think as well, though, for a very young age, I think actually quite a lot of our natural strengths are gaslit, to be honest with you. I think quite a lot of the stuff that's really naturally brilliant about us gets overlooked or isn't is misinterpreted. We love the VIA Institute, the VIA character strengths, profiles, the way that they frame strengths. And I remember sitting with a coach and we were looking at my strengths and I was rolling my eyes literally as well as in my brain like, don't make me look at strengths because I just didn't see the value of them. And the coach said to me, what strengths do you notice in coming up right now?

And I just said, for some reason, I keep looking at curiosity, which is one of the VIA character strengths. And then I suddenly got a bit emotional, which caught me off guard. And the coach invited me to kind of ask what might be going on there. And I just said, I have this memory or memories of putting my hand up in the classroom and being told that that was disruptive. And then I started having my brain started to make more connections. And I suddenly realized I am actually really curious, but I think I dampen my curiosity.

And I'm making some connections as to maybe why that is. I don't see curiosity as a strength because I've got some history to suggest that curiosity is bad behavior. And it made me suddenly go, wow, if you've got that kind of relationship with this strength, what other relationships do you have with all the other strengths? And it sort of was a moment in time for me where I started to realize this is part of the thing that I desperately need that I didn't realize. Why? Because strengths just fall into its importance to know your strengths. And I wasn't interested in my strengths.

And of course, as we know, ADHD brains are wide for interest. If you present me with strengths, I might go, yeah, I'm sure they are my strengths, but they mean nothing to me. But I don't even value them because I've got a lot of history to suggest you just need to, as Katie said, just try harder and go on to the next thing, like do more, be better. Strengths shifts us from being human doings into human beings. They're all states of being strengths. You know, it's huge.

Katie Friedman: I'd also say that like, we claiming your strengths is also about, about taking up space and it's really intersectional. So, a lot of us have been told to be small, to be nice, to be kind, being bossy when we're actually leadership, for example. So I dismissed that. I remember five million white men called John who were like the leadership in the organization would say things like, Kate it's great, but you've got to reign her in.

Like that's so, do you know what I mean? Great, but you've got to control her because, you know, we can't have a woman in a position of leadership that upsets the apple cart. And it's that kind of thing where you have to reclaim the narrative of what it is to have leadership or creativity or whatever, because a lot of the time, ADHD has experienced quashing too much, you're too much, you're too this, you're too that, because sometimes it intimidates, right?

William Curb: Yeah, I mean, just this was making me think about this. ADHD style of talking that we often have where we're connecting different ideas and we're bringing everything together. And often that can be too much for other people that are like, why are you talking about this? I'm like, oh, well, we were talking about that 10 minutes ago and then this came together. It was like, oh, but this idea of connecting things is a huge strength.

Like that is something like that's one of the reasons I'm a good writer is because I can connect disparate ideas and be like, hey, these are good things to talk about together. And but it is often not some of the thought of something is that's a strength. And so I think that's often why people have this idea of like, I'm not good at anything is because they are stuck in this like, oh, there's the only this productivity lens that we can look at things through.

Katie Friedman: Yeah, it's also about understanding. So like when we use the strength, so even think you just basically describe creativity, but a lot of us go, well, I don't paint, so I'm not creative. It's like, okay, and they've been told that or do you know what I mean? And so they have a very limited or reductive view of a word or self regulations, the classic. Well, I've been told I definitely haven't got any of that. So that can't be my strength. Do you know what I mean? And we've got to build that, people have to learn in the moment. And that's what we do in coaching is like, we catch people with what you just did right then that was this or what did you, what can you see? Because once we can name that, then some of these more impossible strengths like self regulation or prudence become interesting. Once we realize we've got some reach and we can move into spaces that maybe we didn't think were ours.

Alex Campbell: Kate has mentioned a good point here, which is about being able to name strengths. Like we don't actually have much language because we literally don't have words for it. Strengths is almost, at least at Goldmine, strengths is not like another nice coaching model. It's like a vernacular, like a grammar, a way of being. Like if I can start to understand strengths because I've got language for it, I'm more likely to start to think about it. I'm more likely to think about how do I want to apply these strengths or how am I showing up? And getting into the detail, I guess, of how that strength looks like, feels like for me, in different contexts.

William Curb: And I'm also seeing, having talked to a lot of people, this undercurrent people also have of associating their weaknesses as that main thing that is what's wrong with them or something. I could be like, oh, I can't keep my car clean, which means I'm a bad person, even though I do all this other stuff. And it's like, how does having your car clean have anything to do with anything? But it is still this, we have these like, this is what society expects of me. And if I'm not hitting those marks, it's I'm wrong. I'm broken. It's the like, I'm a good mom, but I don't keep a clean house. So I can't have anyone over. And I'm ruining my children's childhood.

Katie Friedman: Yeah. And if we don't understand why we're not keeping a clean house, and we don't understand the kind of the lens behind it, and we haven't got that granularity of our experience, we can't even derate why it's a challenge, then we do just assume the brain just wants shortcuts. It just goes, well, because you're an idiot, or because you're a terrible mom, or because you're this or that, not enough, not enough. And that's what we're walking around with. And then we get people going, you should be kind to yourself. Oh, it's another thing I'm not doing, you know?

William Curb: Yeah. Oh, yeah. So many things.

Alex Campbell: Did your brain go fast and hold that?

Katie Friedman: Come to coaching. Come to coaching.

William Curb: The worst part about doing these podcasts is I'm like, I should do all of the things. And I'm like, OK, slow down. You can only do some of them. But this thing I was thinking about here too, though, is, so what would the process then be to helping people through to see these strengths, to see that, oh, maybe I can do things about these things?

Katie Friedman: This is kind of what we were talking about. We use models to help people to understand their experience. So someone might come and be like, you know, this happened. I don't even know why did I do that. I keep getting told this, or, you know, they'll bring a scenario. And we're trying to get them interested in the detail of what's going on for them first. So it's zoning in on them. Usually they want to focus on everybody else, that boss, that person, blah, blah, blah.

And we're trying to bring them back to their experience. And so by understanding, then we start to get the nuance of, like, when does this happen? What would you have needed for this to be different for you to have different behaviors? Like, when have you behaved in a completely different way but with a similar task? You see what I mean? And we're starting to discern kind of which tasks work for us, which tasks are really difficult, and why, you know, which environments are working for us, which are not.

And also, what kind of states are preferable and how can I affect my state? Because if I've got none of that understanding, then of course I'm going to feel powerless. Some days are good and some days are bad, and I don't know which, and I'm on a roller coaster, is basically how it feels. And that's disempowerment. And so really, we're almost learning ourselves in micro moments. We're learning our own recipe by getting interested in detail, which sounds weird, because most of us couldn't tell us about detail. And we've got to try and get ingested. And I think that's the coach's job, is to kind of get interested in the detail, because there's gold in there.

Alex Campbell: One of the things that we do as ADHD coaches, specifically that's separate to other forms of coaching, is that we have this ADHD lens. And part of the ADHD lens is understanding executive functions. And we use Dr. Thomas C. Brown's executive function model. He breaks it down into six different parts. There are various ways that people do talk about it. But when you can start to understand how executive functions go to the brain's management system, how it's playing out the different parts of executive function, how they might be, what happens is we start to stop blaming ourselves and go, this is what might be going on in my brain. Because so often, the problem, the common denominator is me.

Right, I'm the problem. And often that's because there's a lack of awareness of what might be actually going on for them. And so when we look at executive functions, we start to get a bit more detail, as Katie mentioned on, oh, so this wasn't about the fact that I couldn't focus. This was the fact that I couldn't even get started. This is an activation piece. Or I was so overwhelmed by this, it was actually to do with the fact that emotions. I was so overwhelmed by emotions that I couldn't get started. So you start to get into the detail of what might be going on. That's really big, because normally, as Katie mentioned, the brain's black and white, I just couldn't do it. This is another piece of proof, you know?

It's very empowering to stop blaming oneself and go, oh, this is why this was harder. Right, I've got a lens for it. And when you've got that clarity, it's actually easier than to start to look at, so who do I want to be? And when we ask that question, who do I want to be? What we're really inviting is strengths, income, the strengths, because the strengths provide a language for who do I want to be. What kind of mum do I want to be in this sort of scenario, for instance.

Katie Friedman: And I think one of the things that we're doing here is busting shame, because it's all very well to look at your emotions, but most of us experience just tsunamis of shame, or tsunamis of fear, or whatever. And it's hard to get past the... These are secondary emotions, right? They come from the survival stuff of not having any detail or what's really going on.

So we just go, oh, I'm wrong and terrible, shame, shame, shame. And actually, if we can get under all that to the primary stuff, that's where the gold is, because I was kind of telling you, like, oh, this is an unmet need, or this is what I am meeting, and how am I doing that? You know, and once we can get into that, then we're cooking, you know, now we've got our recipe, and we can start living a lot more intentionally and on purpose, like Alex says.

William Curb: One of the interesting things I've heard about ADHD is it's not a condition of not knowing what to do, but, and they're like, yeah, we all know exactly what we need to do. And I'm like, I don't think that's the case really. I think we think we know what we need to do, and maybe we know where we want to get to, but we have no idea what path we need to take, and that first step is what we actually need to figure out.

Katie Friedman: And also, why? Why are we doing? Why are we obsessed with doing? And also, like, what does time look like? Because most of us can't feel it or experience it, like, we experience time so differently that unless we kind of, like, wrestle with it and get it in our bones, it's not happening. And so we're not going to keep any sense of structure or anything, unless we, for me, it's visual. I need to get it visual. I'm going to have to use my hands, get it in my muscle memory. And I sometimes have to do it, like, hourly, because it's just gone for me, you know?

William Curb: Yeah, the number of times I've been like doing something during the day and I'm like, oh my, how is it this time already? Like, I thought it was like, even now it just looks like I'm like, thought it was going to be earlier in the day. Yeah. And it's one of those things where it's like, really hard to figure out what those steps are that would make that happen. But yeah, as you said, it's like getting into it, literally. I mean, using timers and figuring out, okay, yeah, I don't have this great sense. How can I build in systems that are going to make it so that I can see time? You know, have clocks that are visual that I'm not always only checking myself when I'm looking at my watch or something.

Katie Friedman: And I'd say that's the one thing about coaching that's more sustainable, right? If you just look at solutions, you're going to crash and burn because of course we're going to get bored. Well, they'll lose their novelty and we'll feel broken again. Like, oh, Google Calendar doesn't work for me anymore, you know? But if you learn the stuff underneath it, then you'll always be able to find the solution. So that's the point, isn't it? We've teach someone to fish, they can fish for life. If you just keep giving them the rod and stuff, it's not helpful, right? We need to know the skills and really understand ourselves. And that's really what coaching is about.

Alex Campbell: You mentioned about knowing what to do, but it's about the first step. I think sometimes there's something about getting really clear on what is my expectation. Because quite often the thing that I know I want is so high. It's like a bar in the clouds that we can't even see, but we know it's somewhere up there. But we're never going to reach it. And there's something about expectation setting, I notice. Is that really realistic, that idea?

There's something about measuring ourselves to some kind of ideals that are probably cooked up from some kind of neurotypical idea. We're never going to reach. And so we're in this constant cycle of frustration of, well, I've never... You get the point where it's like, what is the point? Yeah, because what you're trying to achieve is so lofty, is so high, that it's so deactivating, we don't get started. So I'm just going to sit and watch more Netflix. You know, that's more interesting.

William Curb: Earlier this year, I went through this exercise of writing down exactly what I thought doing all these things would do. And I was just like, this involves never being like, never being unmotivated, always having a ton of energy, always feeling like I want to work. And I was just like, that's so unrealistic, having actually written that out, that I can be like, OK, let's step this back a little bit. Right.

Katie Friedman: Yeah, we have a lot of need to get real sometimes, right? Whether it's time, expectation or the rest of it, how do we get back to reality?

William Curb: I think that is a great thing with working with a coach, because when we're only in our own head, it is very easy to be like, we can do anything.

Alex Campbell: It reminds me the beginning of when we do this in our coach training, but it's like the client comes in and they quite literally want their world to change in the space of 45 minutes. And it's like part of the role of coaching is trying to help that ADHD with their speedy or hot brain go. And what really matters to you in the next 30 minutes? It's like, because that's the time that we have, you know, there's something and that actually at the beginning can feel a bit restrictive. But then it becomes transformations like, oh, wow, this is the shift that I can make when I make this more manageable for myself. You know, it's huge.

It's like learning a whole new way of getting really interested. In the small because we're really interested in the big. We want to all change yesterday. And it's like, that might be why we feel like we've never reached our potential because the potential that we are expecting of ourselves is so bloody huge that we can change the relationship to this and make it smaller. Everything actually does become quite transformational.

William Curb: So one more point I want to make sure we hit on before the end of the show is reading through the book. There's a beginning starts a lot talking about intersectionality, internalized ableism and all these ideas that I personally feel don't get enough attention right now because it is as a white male presenting podcaster. I feel like I have more of the world on ADHD like bending to me than I probably should. I think there's a lot of other voices that need to be heard.

Katie Friedman: Yeah, we do too. And we're trying to bring in intersectionality kind of at all levels. Like we tried to do that in the book rather than it be like a little section that you do a bit of lip service to. We were like, how do you weave it in and keep bringing it through the whole book and like infuse it and then we've tried to do the same with our training. I don't think we're there. I think we're all on a journey, but I'm really proud of like how we're teaching how to bring it in so that, you know, if I said to you, what would you like to focus on and you say your piece, whatever you want to say?

And then I might and I did this today with someone I said, you know, and I'm wondering what if looking at intersectionality here would be useful? And I said, yeah, yeah, it'd be really useful. And actually this person was thinking about an extra diagnosis of various other things and what that meant to them. And we brought in intersectionality and they were able to bring in other lenses that were really playing into this. They'd already mentioned internalized ableism, but they were talking about their social class. They were talking about their level of education and also what it would mean in terms of to their family background.

And they were able to see a much, you know, a lot more of their identities rather than, you know, well, we're here for ADHD coaching. So the only thing we're going to manage is that for, you know, ease. So yeah, but that means I have to leave some of me at the door. And that's really tiring, right? So I think the more a coach can be open to things that aren't them, that's quite important. So the other thing that we taught, we teach is, you know, how do you raise yourself? And a lot of therapists and coaches have been trained to kind of pretend that they don't exist. And I'm a professional. I don't have a personality.

I'm just here for you. It's like, that's BS and we know it. So why don't we work with it rather than like pretend and be in that kind of masking thing? So I said to this client, I said, so I'm aware that you're talking about neurodivergence and I'm neurodivergent. And so I'm wondering, like, how we need to talk about our similarities and differences and contract for that before we get into this conversation. And I was like, what's coming up for you? Because it's always the client.

And the client said, actually, there are some things I'm wondering about, like, how can I possibly, you know, be doing X, Y and Z and you hearing this, if I am still ableist and I've still got. So there was shame as part of the community. And we named it and we also framed it so that their nervous system was calm before they got into it. Right. That safety making. But it's also about, let's not pretend that I'm just going to pretend that I have no feelings about this as you talk about it. It's like, is this a motive? So let's get real and be vulnerable in this together.

Alex Campbell: I think for me as well, there's something about understanding how ADHD being neurodivergent shows up so differently, often depending on our intersecting identities. So there's something about when I can really understand my identity and how there's a lot of privilege. It's helpful to frame it as privilege is not cocktails by the beach. Privilege is simply the stuff that I don't have to deal with because of my privilege. And this idea, if I can understand me and the things I don't have to deal with when there are other ADHDs that I'm working with.

Who may not hold the same identities as me, it's help of me to understand my experience and what I'd have to deal with or do have to deal with because it helps them also feel seen in terms of because they're going to have different experiences to me if they hold different identity markers. That's going to be different. And that often hugely informs someone's ability to thrive or not, depending on their degree of marginalisation and privilege.

William Curb: I mean, I know so many people that have talked about like they've worked with a therapist or a coach or just someone in their life that doesn't have ADHD. And they're like, you don't get it. And for them, that's the easy step. They're like, yeah, I can totally see why that person with ADHD wouldn't get it. But then it's like, yeah, but if someone has so many different ideas, it's like, yeah, I can't.

I don't have the lived experience to say that how that person is feeling in this moment or why that something from their cultural heritage, like they're like being something that is a driving focus in their life. For me, I'm like, oh, yeah, that doesn't make any difference to me. But for them, they're like, this is my heritage. I would feel terrible not acknowledging it. Okay. Yeah, that's important to you. We need to have that in mind when we're having these conversations.

Katie Friedman: Exactly. I love this example. You were in a training recently and then some white guy say, I don't see color. What did you say to that?

Alex Campbell: Oh, yeah. So I was in training and there was a mixture of different people from different backgrounds. He said, I don't see color. And I was saying that when we say things like that, we are essentially eradicating other people's experiences that might be different to your own because color massively influences or how we racialize people massively influences their experiences and their experiences of thriving.

And this person spoke up in the room and said, well, actually, my experience of coming here to New Zealand has been very different to say somebody else's experience because there's someone who was from Africa. And it was this idea of like the hurdles that they've had to jump through versus say someone who was racialized as white and coming from a developed country. There was something about them, realizing, oh, when I say I don't see color, I mean, I don't see all of their different experiences. That are different to mine.

Katie Friedman: Because you don't have to. Because they don't have to. That's what I don't see color is. Yeah.

Alex Campbell: Yeah. Yeah. And it was huge for them to realize, ah, that's not inviting connection. That's not helping people be seen because it means I'm just staying with the fact that my experience is the same as everybody else's right.

Katie Friedman: Or I'm centering my experience is the only experience.

Alex Campbell: Yes.

Katie Friedman: That's the issue.

Alex Campbell: Yeah. Exactly.

William Curb: Yeah. And it's for so many different intersectionalities because people are like the sexual orientation, they're being trans, being... I have a different experience from being a father than a lot of people have being a mother. Like that is a huge difference, even though I'm a very involved father, that's a different experience. Like, and it's all these different intersectionalities that are important to acknowledge because people think, oh, yeah, everyone's experience is universal and it's not.

Katie Friedman: What I used to love on lockdown is, you know, men would kind of like, oh, come in my child, you know, like whatever, because it's novel that the child would come in. Whereas, you know, as a woman, you're constantly trying to hide that you're a parent because of course it's used against you.

Whereas it's almost like a trophy thing for them because it's not, you know, and that's still the case. It still happens and you kind of go, it's, yeah, what that thing about leaving parts of you at the door, you know, I had to leave parenting at the door when I was in leadership because, you know, it was almost seen as something that could work against me. Oh, well, she can't this, she can't that, and I've got to work twice as hard. And I think this is something we have to, this is something else that we have to remember when we're talking about not knowing or survival.

It's not all about ADHD, you know. If it could be that we're in survival for so many reasons, for so many systemic reasons that we're walking in this world is, I mean, even walking is an ablest thing to say, right? Moving in this world, living in this world, right, is not okay and harder, is made harder.

It's like more weight in the backpack. And I think we just have to be open to that. And it doesn't mean it's not about erasing your own experience. I think this is the other thing that no one really gets. It's human building. It builds you up to hold space, you know, to wider space and to keep that space open and diverse. I think that's the biggest thing that, you know, diversity was going to save us, you know?

William Curb: Well, I applaud you guys for including that section in the book when I was reading through it. I was just like, oh, this is fantastic. I don't often see it, so I was really appreciative to see it there. I was just wondering if you guys had any final thoughts you wanted to leave the listeners with?

Katie Friedman: I want to leave the listeners with this idea of teamwork. I don't think we've talked about that enough. Sometimes people look at me and Alex because, you know, we look so successful, but we're also really well supported by each other, by people that support us in our team. And I really want to kind of like debunk that idea that we're just really, you know, doing it all on our own or anything. Like, you know, even this week, we're really knackered this week. We've been really good. I'm just going to applaud us here, Alex, because I think it's been exceptional this week.

We've been on the floor, you know, it's like been a relay race. And it's, I've said to him things like, I can't edit posts. I can't, I just can't even face it. I'm so avoidant. Please can you do it? And he's like, yeah, I can do that because it's faster for him and he can do that. And then I've said, oh, you know, doing this delivery that Alex was supposed to do. And I'm like, well, it's in my time zone. So why don't I just do it?

I did the one last week. So we've been really good at like just being really pragmatic about what's easier for you, what's easier for me. And let's not pretend that we're in a good place to do all of it or to carry like, let's just do what we can do. I think that's really cool teamwork. And one of the things I want to leave people with is the idea of like, don't do ADHD on your own. It's so much better to do it with other people, you know, a community is the thing. And I think if anything, I'd love it if we had made more of that in the book, but I'm going to own that we just weren't there yet. We hadn't quite landed it. It almost happened straight after the book. So that would be the extra chapter I wish I'd written. And it's the thing I want to leave with.

Alex Campbell: Yeah, I love that, Katie. I think I would just build on that, which is I think for me, one of the key parts of having an interest with our brain is connection. And I think there's something about asking yourself the question, where do I get my connection? How do I find connection? How does connection become part of the source of my well-being and the source of my brilliance? And this is connection to people, connection to causes, connection to what matters to you.

It could be connection to lots of different things, but where do you find that connection? And I think I echo what Katie said. I think there's something about how often many ADHDs are fiercely independent. Part of that is an adaption to the survival of not understanding. And I've got to succeed. It's all on me. And it's something about going, there's so much more when it's not all just on you. Like it's so beautiful when you can either. I mean, we are so fortunate, as Katie said, to be in partnership together. We're also really good mates.

And there's something about what we witness in our coaching community of people connecting and going, I finally found my people. But it's not just I finally found other ADHDs. It's I finally found ADHDs who are doing the work, because then they're really wanted to work on themselves and understand how they live on purpose, being neurodivergent in the world today in all of their different facets of their intersectionality. That is so cool when you find those sorts of people. Like it's transformational. And it also, I think it's part of recovery. I think teamwork and being close to other people, especially when they're neurodivergent is part of recovery. Being in community is huge.

Katie Friedman: Recovery from not knowing. That's what we mean by recovery.

Alex Campbell: Yeah, Yeah. When I say recovery, a recovery from the years of not knowing and going, part of that is being with people. Yeah, I would live the listeners of that.

William Curb: Well, yeah, I can agree with both those points. I know this podcast wouldn't happen without my editor, who's amazing, Stefan and my producer Kelly, who makes sure everything happens like this year where I first have both of them working for me all the time. And I haven't missed a post this year yet.

And that's because of that. I have this team that's making this so much easier to do and having people to work with is fantastic. Well, thank you guys so much for coming on the show. And I'm sure people will really enjoy looking at the book and looking at GoldMind Academy.

Alex Campbell: Thank you for having us.

Katie Friedman: Thank you for having us.

This Episode's Top Tips

1. Work on shifting from a deficit lens to a strengths lens. We want to understand not just what we’re good at but what we need in place to express those strengths effectively.

2. It’s important that we integrate identity first and strategy second. For real change to happen, we need to understand and accept who we are before trying to layer on productivity tools.

3. ADHD isn’t easy to manage in isolation. With teamwork and support systems, we can drastically reduce burnout and overwhelm, so it’s incredibly important that we work on building connection and community.

William Curb
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