Accountability is one of the best ways to help you work through those things on your to do list that you just don’t want to do. But finding accountability isn’t always easy. In my conversation today, I’m talking with Joshua Greene, co-founder of the co-working app Groove.
In our conversation today we’ll be talking of course about how Groove works - and specifically what sets it apart from many of the other co-working and accountability apps. We talk about following our energy flow, especially in regards to nontraditional work, how counterintuitive weak social ties can create a better accountability experience, and accountability also applies to so much more than just productivity.
William Curb: I think the best place for us to start is, can you tell me a little bit about groove so that the listeners can get a kind of a sense of what Groove is?
Josh Greene: Yeah, of course, with pleasure. We originally built groove as a way to hang out with your friends. Both me and my co-founders started, like have always had these like very non-traditional careers, but also lives. One of my co-founders, he has his energy working very early hours in the morning. I like can't sit still for more than five minutes without, you know, I think as a teenager, my father used to sit next to me when I did my homework. Like, didn't speak to me, but just was like my first experience in body doubling without knowing it. And Tom and my other co-founders, she's very good at structures and processes to help keep her focused in her work.
We built it as a way to like hang out with our friends in the day. It's built around our intentional times of work, where there's some social time and some work time. This was a social ritual that allowed us to socialise and be effective. And we've watched it emerge over the last two years into something that's been really important and profound in people's work days and work lives. We now have a community of people that all are carving out non-traditional paths. Many of them have ADHD, often ADHD, who was diagnosed later in life and are figuring out how do I make work for me? And these sessions are giving people the sort of the opportunity to take control of their time again in a way that works for them.
William Curb: It was funny when I was talking with a friend about this. I was like describing what the app was and he's like, but why? And I'm like, oh, he's a very neuro-typical. And I was just like, oh, I just would find it hard to just sit down and do work and stuff. He's like, oh, yeah, I don't have that problem. And I'm like, huh, that's wild. Like it is like amazing to think like, yeah, people work in very different ways. And for some people, yeah, having that body doubling presence is just so vital to actually getting stuff done.
Josh Greene: And it's interesting because even though me and my co-founders are neurodiverse in different ways, we didn't start the project as like a product for neurodiversity. We started the project being like screw the nine to five, you know, like everyone wants to break out of the system. But you realize for a lot of people that are neuro-typical, the system works. People where the system doesn't work, it really doesn't work. Like paralyzingly doesn't work.
At the same time, there's a lot of good that comes when you work for a company or you work as part of a team that gives you structure. Just we need a completely different kind of structure and we need a completely different kind of way to surround ourselves with people that can help us thrive in ways that work for us. And that's been a big learning because that's been quite organically emerging as we build the product. As we start with this like, wait four people one hour, check in at the beginning, check in at the end, get your head down to work for 50 minutes in the middle of it.
Like there's a single ritual, but actually, how does that integrate into my life? You know, I have these weird flows of energy that are just not consistent, you know, not like I can say that at 10 o'clock, I can sit down at my desk every day and find my flow. I either need social energy or I need to take a walk or I need to like follow the energy when it comes. And in following that energy, this like ritual really allows me to harness it. And I wouldn't have guessed that on day one of building this.
William Curb: Yeah, I mean, we were chatting a little bit beforehand about how a number of different products in this space that people are, as people are realizing, oh, this is a great tool for people to use. And a lot of them is, yeah, you book a time in advance. And so it was like when I was setting up with Ruben looking like, oh, I don't book a time, that's interesting.
And I'm like, but I am still working one on one with someone because there's like enough of a community where I can just like jump on and have someone available. As we're saying, yeah, that flow of energy throughout the day is not consistent. So it's hard sometimes to be like, yeah, I'm going to attend. This is what I'm going to do. And then I like 10 rolls around. I'm like, really don't want to do you doing this.
Josh Greene: Yeah, I think you really have to run with your energy. I was reading this book on slow productivity by Cal Newport. And I just found it interesting that the second chapter is this whole concept of pseudo productivity. There's like things that emerged out in the industrial revolution. They took an agricultural framework for productivity is how much time are I harvesting apples? And then you put it into the workplace and be like, how much time is I set on my computer? Means that I'm productive. Actually, for me in particular, I know that my productivity happens in really small bursts of energy. And I have to harness it when it comes.
There are moments that I need to like temper the highs and lows and therefore, therefore having having a practice where I'm like, oh, I can open the app and it might support me like getting through time and getting something done that I wouldn't have done otherwise. But I think it's a balance of not expecting myself to just fall into this structured schedule routine, but allow for spontaneity. And also because I think a lot of the things that we're really excited about that we're building with groove is it's about capturing the energy of the people you surround yourself with. And we created a lot of time for that in the experience that the check-ins before and after are not time-bound.
Like you can actually do them for as long as you want. People, if they're meeting each other for the first time, they're probably not going to. But if you know each other well, this might be a time where you hang out or catch up or hear what's going on, ask for advice or feedback. You leverage that time in really powerful ways. But all of that to say is like, I need the people because the people are what bring me back, the people are what get me going. And that happens relatively spontaneously. I don't want to fix that. I don't want to lock that in.
William Curb: Well, there's also it's the I'm going to stay in my chair, sit what I'm doing, because I know at the end I have to come back to the person. Whereas it's often when I'm working on my own, I'll be like doing something like, oh, but I could also go run and do laundry. And then, you know, half an hour later, I'm realized I never got back to what I was doing.
Josh Greene: It's so dangerous. It's so dangerous. Some simple accountability goes miles and miles in terms of impact.
William Curb: And is that mainly what you see people getting the benefit of just having that other person there is that or what you'd experience like, oh, yeah, just having someone there at create that accountability. And is that the main benefit or are there other side things you're seeing as well?
Josh Greene: So I had a call today with a groover. They've done about 200 sessions now, maybe. So that's relatively new to the platform. They've been using it for a few months and 200 sessions, 200 hours of accountability and getting stuff done. So it is significant. What's interesting is people definitely say at the end of their first session, well, this was the most powerful hour of my day. There's a really positive feedback loop. But in the same breath, they're saying, well, I feel like I'm surrounded by people like me and that's really hard in today's world. Like I have camaraderie. I have a supportive structure. I feel welcomed.
I feel cared for. Also in the call, they said that it reassured me that it was possible for me to craft a work life that worked for me because I saw all of these other people who are neuro diverse, building lives for themselves and being successful at it. So, yes, there's like multiple levels of accountability. There's accountability for the hour. There's this as the relationships develop within the community. There's accountability at a more macro level. People hold each other accountable for bigger goals across the week or across the month.
But around that is just the support that comes from having this group of humans that care about you that you're part of. And this interaction is pretty unique in the fact that it allows really meaningful relationships to foster in a virtual world, which is rare. It's hard to do on discord. It's hard to do on Slack. There's something about intimate structured social time that fosters relationship. And that's profound. If I speak to people, the impact of groove later on in their journey, 90% of the conversation is going to be, well, it's the power of people. It's the power of the relationships that I have in my life.
I work at home on my own. I'm trying to stay on top of things. There's too many distractions. I'm a mother as well as running my business, whatever it might be. Groove has given me the relationships to allow that to be possible, to allow that to thrive, to nourish me in so many ways. And 10% will be like, and it's super productive.
I get loads of stuff. No one's not talking about it because that is fundamentally why they're opening the app is to get work done. But actually, I think when you work in different ways, finding other people that work in different ways and building relationships where there's like coalescence and vibe, vibe that's falling into each other, it's just really difficult. And we really want to support relationship building around the utility.
William Curb: Yeah, I can definitely see how important that would be, too, because I've done co-working where it's just like a drop in space with like 20 people on Zoom or in a discord room or something. And I'm like, this is great. But also, if I just leave five minutes in, nobody's going to notice. And yeah, it doesn't build that relationship. And I think, yeah, you right, the relationship is the key part of having it work because often what's keeping us from doing stuff is just that we need that accountability. And the accountability doesn't exist with like, if I had a chat bot reminding me to keep doing work, I'd ignore it after a bit because I'm like, it doesn't care.
Josh Greene: There's something stuck with me from very early days in group that actually has just been validated with some data because we're doing some collaborative research with the university at the moment that a group of with ADHD told me that he said, he said, I'm really pleased that I don't know everyone here really well, because if I did, the accountability would drop off because I would feel comfortable making up an excuse or I would be able to pivot the conversation. He said, there's some certain boundary around having weak ties and weak ties, I think is a big theme in how we build relationships.
You know, the barista in the coffee shop that we like to go to be like someone that I have a rapport with, they know my face, they probably know my name, you know, some things about each other, but I don't have a deep relationship with them, whatever these people that show up as weak ties in our lives. They actually do a much better job at keeping you accountable than strangers or people that you know really well, interestingly, it's this nice thing of, oh, these are people that I've seen a few times, we know each other, we know what we're doing. And at the same time, I don't know you too well, that the accountability is going to diminish.
And it's always stuck with me. And I think it's shaped a lot of the product thinking, we want to help you find, we see that people build essentially their crew, or we call it in a product, their orbit of the 30 to 40 people that they spend most of their time with. So it's more than you would have on a dedicated team of six or 10. But it's a wider group of people that we see each other often enough that you can ask a question, you can get advice, you would ask for an introduction, or you might want to get some more supports around broader accountability, etc. And I think that relationship that we're building, I think is very, very powerful in people's lives.
William Curb: Yeah, absolutely. One of the things I was also thinking about here is how you get people to come back for session two, and then, you know, keep going, because it is very easy to try something out and be like, that was great, and then never pick it up again.
Josh Greene: Yeah, you're definitely dialling into the like the biggest focus for us. And from a product perspective, the way I think about it is, you know, Groove is really profound when it's a tool that's in your toolkit. And it's like war, and like, you know, the hammers worn, the handles worn, whatever it might be, and you know, okay, I've got this thing, and I can pick it up and use it. It's also something that's accessible enough that you'll try it once people leave the first session with a lot of energy. And at the same time, it's not a tool that's really embedded in your toolkit. So you can just grab for it and know that the handle fits in your hands and nicely.
So at the moment, we're doing a lot of handholding people through that journey, both in terms of will help you find other people like you, whatever like you means to you, whether it's same role, same stage in career, same flow of work, working, whatever it means. So really actively helping people find each other within the community. And also we're building a number of features to sort of help,People get through the first, it's really the first five sessions that we need to provide a lot of support for. And at a broader level, I think we're looking at the fact that group really upgrades your whole work week.
So how do we help people and support people through that journey of having a working week that feels nourishing for them? And we're experimenting with ways to fit into that and provide support, whether that might be like some onboarding coaching or some integration into your cat. We're not excited about booking slots as a formal way of structure. Like it might be some scaffolding that we help people in the early part of their journey, but probably not. I'm forced to put something on my calendar that I'm going to turn up for.
But actually, you know, as we maybe help you design your week with time boxing of specific tasks at specific times, the group could like fit into that. So giving people a perspective of like, what does my week look like with groove within that? And how do the features help people design their first week as opposed to their first session? That's what we're experimenting. I know I don't have a good, robust answer in the product right now. So a lot of it is, is the team really just helping you get through that initial journey?
William Curb: Yeah, well, I mean, it's, and it's hard because there's, I mean, I know I have so much resistance to continuing new things. Like I will start some, I will try anything like, I'll be like, Oh, I'm going to try this app and I'll download it and then it'll kind of disappear in my phone. And I'll be like, it was good, but it's the building the habit of using it. That is the is hard.
Josh Greene: I think more than ever, people are one of the big keys to that. And knowing that you're going to come back, having a reminder, not from the team, but from someone else in groove, you groove with someone for the first time and they send you a message, Hey, was great grooving and would be loved to see you around tomorrow. Knowing that there are people on familiar faces of people that you would want to see and build relationships with. I think the value of I want to build relationships with the people here. It's why one of the differentiating factors for us is we really focus on people that are not working, you know, we're not a product for students. We're not a product for people in full time roles.
We could add a lot of value to those people's lives. But we know that there are people that are carving out careers that don't look like the conventional career, because they're not people that look like your neurotypical person that sits down and gets their work done in a nine to five. And we've really committed to how do we provide support to this demographic, me included, of like, how do I, how do I build a product that works for me where I'm not conventional. And therefore, I want to meet all the people that are around here. And we see so many people drawn into groove as opposed to other products, because it's like, this is designed for me, you know, other things might have utility, but this is a group of humans that I want to hang out with. And as with any good social product, that is a really underlying driver for why I come back.
Because as much as a utility could be, you know, if I'm just a hammer, and I have to have an airline, I'm only going to pick up the hammer when I need to hammer an airline. But a social experience is like, you know, I want to go back to that bar or that members club or that co-working space, because every time I go there, I meet someone that inspires me or supports me or lights me up. And we really hope that we can deliver on that. And I think that is where we see people be successful. It's because they found people that lit them up.
William Curb: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm also thinking about how I've definitely seen people use these kinds of spaces for things way beyond working too. Because like work becomes like, it's the obvious choice for things. But if cleaning your garage or something, I remember the first session I did with groove, it was actually the person was just getting ready for their day. And they just wanted to make sure that they stayed on track doing that.
Josh Greene: I think it's a big transition point in someone's grooving journey is then people normally come in and they have like my first task, this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to clear out my inbox, or I'm going to get on top of this project that I'm behind. And then you just realize the power, both of accountability, way beyond the workplace. And also, also the nourishment of just bringing people into your day, irrespective of what you're working on. And I think I love to see it like within the first 10 sessions that someone's like, Oh, yeah, I'm going to practice the guitar, or I'm going to mow the lawn, or I'm going to prepare smoothies on my lunchboxes for the week for my kids.
Like, that actually, you start to see the power of structure more broadly in your life. And the boundaries of, especially of groovers lives are not black and white in any means. And just like, Okay, how am I designing a day that works for me? How am I bringing people into this day in a way that supports me? How am I creating structure in a way that supports me? And those questions have become questions about life, not just questions about work. And therefore, once groove becomes a solution for that, then you start to see it embedded into lives much more broadly.
William Curb: Yeah. And I love the idea too of like creating accountability about like, yeah, playing the guitar or doing things that are what we would see as like more recreational things, because a lot of us don't take that time to relax and be like, Oh, I'm going to create accountability around the fact that I need to take time off. That's like an amazing step I see people taking.
Josh Greene: I think for me, it's always, it always lights me up when I see someone and they say, Okay, what, I joined a group in there. And they'll say, So in the next 50 minutes, I'm just going to take a walk and journal. It's like the middle of the afternoon. Oh, wow. I can see this person really understands they need to take care of themselves. We've always got urgent tasks, you know, we're always fighting fires. Like, that's just the reality, especially being a neuro diverse because like me, my tendency is like, I do the work right before the deadline. I'm not like doing it way out. I'm just like, Okay, cool, you know, I've got to get it done.
I need a deadline because otherwise it's not getting done. So, so if that's the case, then I'm never getting to be important, but not urgent work, you know, and I mean that in like a life sense, going to the gym, meditating, things that, things that would be really nourishing for me. And I think when there's a community of people that are striving for that, it just makes it so much more normal and possible as I'm not the weirdo that's doing that here. Just like here, we do our work that's important and urgent and we do our work that is important and not urgent.
And that's cool, you know, and I think it's, it's cool that we surround ourselves with people that want to live a life that's great, doesn't look conventional, doesn't look typical, but it really works for us as individuals. That brings us together as a community, I think is a profound thing, especially when often we live on the fringes and the way that we work is not normalized in that sense, or the way we live is not normalized.
William Curb: And it's hard to, yeah, carve out that time for yourself without getting this other scaffolding on top that helps you do it. Because when I'm on my own, it's just like, I'm just going to be in my head, I'm like, I'm going to work all day and that never works out how I want it to. When I tried to do that, I had a bunch of other things this morning, I was like, oh, I'm going to do these things first. And I was just like, no, I'm not, that's just not, I'm like, and it's okay. And it's just finding that balance of like, okay, I need the scaffolding to help me do these things I want to do these important things in my life.
Josh Greene: Yeah, I agree with you. I think also that I, I used to put a lot of pressure on myself that, you know, often people say like, intrinsic motivation is better than extrinsic motivation, like, it's better. It's better if it comes for you. And I personally had a load of shame that I need accountability, I need body doubling, like for certain things in my life, I just can't do them on my own, you know, I'm just not going to happen. And that's why when, when, when I hear you say scaffolding, I really resonate, it's like structural scaffolding, and it's also like emotional scaffolding. It's like, like, why can't I fit it into my day?
I can fit opening TikTok or like falling into a Reddit hole, you know, like, I can put that on my day, you know, 45 minutes later, I've done nothing and browse the world of subreddits on something that I find interesting. But like, it wasn't something that could have served me or if it was like health or fitness or something like that, or playing the guitar or practicing an instrument. I think it's like this, like emotional scaffolding to support us being like, Yeah, no, you can do this.
I got some feedback from someone that they joined a group and every person in the group, apart from them, was working on a side hustle or a project that they were passionate about, whether it was pro bono or what and he said, I can't believe it. Like, I can use this to work on things outside my work that are meaningful. And I was like, that's the best thing. Like, and he went away and felt like it was possible. And it was now possible. And I love those unlocks, of making it possible, of letting go of preconceived notions of how I do things or how I show up in the world, and just using people to shift that.
William Curb: Yeah, I was just popping into my head and like, one of the things I've been struggling with recently is I hurt my leg and I need to do some PT on it. And as important as doing the PT is, it is hard to fit into my day. I'm like, Oh, man, I could just body double with someone being like, Hey, I'm just going to do this PT stuff for whoever long it takes, putting that into my to do list of the day, like, Hey, I'm going to do this with someone else. I'm not going to just say I'm going to do that while I'm supposed to be because often I'll be like, I'm going to find the time. I never find the time.
Josh Greene: No, and that is why time boxing is really effective and putting times for tasks on a calendar can be really profound. Because it's just like, I put this thing that I need to do as important as a meeting. The meeting happens because the social accountability of like, I'm meeting someone else. So why can't I just bring that power into the thing that I need support on as well, especially when it's mutually supportive, because I'm going to be doing it with someone else that needs that support too.
William Curb: Yeah, it sounds like the community that's groove is built is just really incredible for getting people to do the things that are important.
Josh Greene: Yeah, it's really wonderful to see what's possible when you surround yourself with people that are also striving to carve out their weird and wonderful paths through this world and want to do something more than just shipping their work, you know, they want to like live a life that works for them. It's great to be building that and supporting people doing that. Awesome.
William Curb: Well, I was wondering if there was anything you wanted to leave the audience with?
Josh Greene: I think if the themes that have resonated here resonate with you, we'd love to support you. We'd love to welcome you into the community. If you're figuring out, like, how do I carve my own path and the systems and structures aren't working for me, we'd love to welcome you in. If you go to our website, which is like groove.ooo, like groove.outofoffice, and you fill in the application form and say that you were listening to the show, we'll just make sure that you get straight in by past the wait list. And you can check out the product. We'll give you an extended trial to do that for a month to see if the community helps you.
William Curb: Yeah, and it's just this is all like over the phone. It's not like browser based or anything.
Josh Greene: It's on both devices and it's fully mobile. Like, we believe that this is a co-working space that you can put in your pocket and take anywhere that you need it.
William Curb: Awesome
Josh Greene: Yeah, the technicalities are very simple, but it is on mobile. And once you're in the app and you've got it going, we don't want you to have it as a desktop extension, or as a browser thing for another thing to clam up already like too many tabs open too much going on. We want you to have a moment where you can move away from your laptop, or you can be using it while you're cooking and you don't have to have your laptop next year. You're not on video for the whole time.
The way that the sessions are structured is you're on video for the check in at the beginning and the end. And when you're working, there's just a text chat between you to hold you accountable through the session. So, the core ritual is really simple. And you can discover people within the app, search, build relationships through orbits, and also map out your broader tasks for the day that you're going to take into those sessions.
William Curb: I appreciate you coming on the show. I think people will be really interested in checking out the app because when I saw it, it's very easy to get into and it was very easy to just start that first session and give it a go.
Josh Greene: Fantastic. Thank you so much for having me on.
This Episode's Top Tips
Coworking can improve our ability to stay on task by utilizing the accountability that comes with just having someone else there with you (even if it’s only virtually).
One of the strongest forms of accountability actually comes from weak social ties, because weak ties strike a balance of providing enough familiarity to foster accountability without the closeness that might encourage us to just take it easy .
It’s important to find and follow your personal energy peaks throughout the day and allowing for breaks and social time when you need it to help maintain high levels of engagement in your work.