Dialing Your Dopamine with Skye Waterson
This week we’ve got a returning guest - Skye Waterson, founder of Unconventional Organisation and host of the ADHD Skills Lab podcast. Skye’s background includes studies in Psychology, Sociology, and Public Health, and she’s spent over seven years helping late-diagnosed adults create sustainable ADHD strategies.
And one of the exciting things that has come from this episode is that Skye and I are going to be doing a spin-off series of the show that focuses exclusively on the research side of ADHD. In these new episodes, we’ll be taking a look at a single research paper and discussing the ins and outs of what the paper says and how it was conducted, as well as trying to give any practical takeaways that will can drum up. Episode lengths are going right back to the origins of this podcast, so we’re aiming for something 15-20 minutes long, but packed with information.
Right now, we’re just going with the name Research Recap with Skye, so we’ll see if we come up with anything a bit more clever than that. Now, if that sounds like something you’re interested in, good news, you don’t have to do anything; these episodes are going to be coming out on the Hacking Your ADHD feed, so they’ll come up right along with all your other podcast downloads. These episodes are going to be coming out every other Friday starting this Friday, July 11th - and as a little preview we're gonna be talking about a paper called “Evidence of Emotion Dysregulation as a Core Symptom of Adult ADHD: A systematic review” - I know, it sounds riveting, and actually, I think we do a pretty good job with it.
But enough on that, let’s jump into what this episode you’re listening to right now is about. In this episode, we’re talking about dopamine and dopamine transfer deficit theory, and Skye lays out her concept of the dopamine dial. We cover everything from how our brains misfire on rewards to fidget toys, and why doom-scrolling on your third screen might not be giving you the kind of stimulation you think it is. This episode is all about dialing it in instead of shutting it all down.
An ADHD Academic's Answer to the Dopamine Detox by Skye Waterson
Unconventional Organisation - Affiliate link
William Curb: It's so exciting to have you back. And this time, we're going to talk about this idea of the dopamine dial specifically in regard to a lot of the stuff we've been hearing about dopamine fasting.
Skye Waterson: Yeah, no, I'm excited. I wrote this article and obviously we talked about the book, and I thought, I have to reach out to you. We have to discuss this in one detail because it's become more of a conversation, I think, this idea that we have too much dopamine. I think people like Huberman have really promoted this concept of reducing the amount of stimulation we have. I talk about this in the article, although I understand where they're coming from, why they want to do that. The method of getting there seems to involve a lot of people with ADHD locking themselves in a windowless room and just hating their life. And I don't really believe, and is researched back up, the fact that I shouldn't believe, that we are designed to do that.
William Curb: What I've seen from when I did my deep dive into dopamine fasting, because I was getting all these ads for how to do dopamine fasting online, I'm like, this is clearly scam ads. It got me enough, like I'm like, let's go and write about this. But there is some science behind it, but it's mostly extrapolated for other people from stuff around addiction, which I'm like, that extrapolation doesn't necessarily hold true for us.
Skye Waterson: Yeah, what we have is what I like to talk about when I talk about how we work with dopamine is this concept of the dopamine transfer deficit theory. So this was a theory that I read all the way back in 2020. It was promoted earlier than 2008 by Tripp and Wiggins. And I'll give you guys the link to the article. They talked about this idea, this theory that when you have ADHD, the reward that you get for doing something hard doesn't seem to be connecting as much for us. So for you, for example, if you guys have ever heard of Pavlov's dog, the dog is going to get some kind of reward.
It associates that with the sound of a bell, eventually the sound of a bell is enough to make a dog saliva. That's essentially the concept. And for people who don't have ADHD, what that means is if they know, okay, well, once I sit down and complete this task, I'm going to get a reward, I'm going to get to go outside, have a coffee, do something fun, then when I'm sitting down, eventually my brain is going to associate, you know, the sound of the focus music or whatever it is, with that reward itself to the point where won't even give me the dopamine spike, it'll be the sound of the focus music that gives it to me.
But if you have ADHD, what they've started theorizing back in 2008 and even earlier, and now they have a lot more evidence for, is that we don't get that experience. We just sit down, listen to the focus music, go, I guess we got to do this. And then we do it. And then at the end, we get to have a coffee and do something fun and go for a walk. And we're just like, thank God that's over. And so the whole system does not connect.
William Curb: Yeah. And I can also really see that with this behavioralism lens that it's also associating that focus music with doing something we don't want to do.
Skye Waterson: Yes. At the same time. Yeah, I could even backfire.
William Curb: It's like, okay, I'm going to listen to this focus music and I'm going to sit down and do my taxes. And man, because I remember learning about this in psychology in high school, which is like, yeah, for the behavioralism part to work, it has to be like, just like they have to be touching. And a lot of times when we're doing that kind of stuff, it's not.
Skye Waterson: It's not. And what we see is that when you are doing tests and they've done this in many different ways, people who have ADHD, we will take the short term reward now. Thank you very much, not the long term reward in the future. And so what that means for dopamine detoxing, if you're going to reduce all of the dopamine is we're not getting a dopamine spike anyway. So if I sit down, if I wake up and I have a cold shower and I sit in a windowless room and get things done or do all this, I'm obviously talking extreme with the dopamine detox. There's lots of ways to do it.
Please don't come for me, people who do this, but you're putting yourself in a situation where you're reducing the dopamine spike that you get because you're going, okay, I'm going to be getting a reward for this later. But we know we have this theory that it's not going to work for us. So basically the whole system is moot. And yes, if there's an addiction quality, there is something to be said for reducing the amount of overall stimulation, sitting in a room with the opposite of a windowless room. It's got TV and stimulants and all kinds of different things like coming at you.
There's so many different kinds of stimulation now. Yes, we want to remove that, but it's more of a dial. And so this is why I developed the concept of the dopamine dial to kind of bridge that gap between dopamine transfer deficit and the dopamine detox and allow us to get to the same place without having to wake up and use all of our limited decision-making power to push through.
William Curb: What are the things that I've also thought about with doing the dopamine fasting and stuff is that these kinds of things are also like, a lot of the things that they're asking you to give up are generally things that we should spend less time doing scrolling, spend less time mindlessly doing things. So there is like that aspect of benefit, but it is not the advertised benefit.
Skye Waterson: Yes, yeah. And that's the thing. I mean, I think we always talk about removing distractions. You know, I'm not going to go on social media. I have other options, but again, I'm dialing it down. I'm not removing like a large amount of dopamine. I still will watch something. I'll just watch it in a more intentional way with my husband or I'll read a book or I'll read like a really silly book. It doesn't have to be hardcore. So there's levels to it. But again, if you think about less like an on-off switch and more like a dial, it becomes a lot more sustainable with ADHD.
William Curb: So we're just thinking about like, instead of being like, hey, we're instead of having things at a nine or 10 or something constantly up, just leveling it down. Because I mean, at the same time, yeah, we do have all this problems with like too much sensory information coming in is very hard to process. And it makes it like, if I'm like looking at the mess on my desk, it's like, okay, that's, it'd be nice to not have to have that sensory input and being like, oh, I should be really cleaning this up too.
Skye Waterson: Yeah, exactly. So when I talk about the dopamine dial, what I essentially mean is if you think about, you know, one of your senses, you can go all the way from, so we talk about sound, for example, and I have an example in my article, you can actually DM me, just DM me hacking at unconventional organization Instagram, and I'll send you the link. I did that last time you guys were amazing. I got so many messages from you. But when we look at the dial, we can see here, okay, we're going all the way from, you know, I'm on social media, and I'm watching the news.
I think that might be the most extreme version of like, visually, I'm watching the news in the background while I'm scrolling on social media. That's quite intense. And so if we're in that position, and we say, okay, I'm here, I have ADHD, and I woke up and I decided to do this. Now I'm in a really high dopamine state. The solution to that isn't to keep doing it until you have the motivation to turn everything off, because that's going to be really hard for you.
The solution to that is often to dial it down. So to say, okay, well, could we switch over to just a YouTube video? You know, could we remove maybe the news and go to something that's a little bit more intentional and still, you know, be fun, make it short, enjoy that. Could we do that? And then if we're doing that, okay, well, YouTube's okay, you know, maybe we switch down to listening to a podcast or listening to an audio book.
And then from there, maybe music and from there, maybe ambient noise. And so if you give yourself that dial to move down, you can get to a lower dopamine state, but reward yourself the whole way, which is really crucial if we're not getting rewards at the end. Like, just take the idea of rewards at the end and throw it out the window there. You'll feel good about it. But, you know, if we're working off this assumption, this theory that we're not going to get it, then we need to give ourselves a reward now.
William Curb: Yeah. And I think one of the things that's like popping to my head here too is when we do need to have a little bit of extra stimulation to stay focused on something. So that's a lot of times when people will turn to their phone, they're like, okay, I want to watch the news, but it's not quite engaging enough. So I'm going to just pop out my phone and kind of like, you know, scroll something while I'm catching up on this. It becomes this thing where it's like, oh, I'm not engaged in the other thing I have.
It's too much. But like, if we like pick up like a little fidget, and we're just holding that and like doing something with our hands, or I know people that like to knit while paying attention to things, doodle, that kind of thing. Like, okay, that is the same idea of like dialing it down. I'm using something to keep in touch, but I'm not doing something that's, that's why when I see people talking about using phones as fidgets, I'm like, it's, if it works for you, okay, but for, I don't know many people that's true for.
Skye Waterson: Oh yeah. Oh yeah, 100%. And so conversely, we're talking instead of detoxing, we're talking about adding things into your life, you know. My recommendation, I worked with clients, you know, this is the basis of a lot of what I teach, and I've taught for five years with hundreds of entrepreneurs and executives and professionals. And my recommendation is usually, hey, you're understimulated, I know that sounds really crazy, but you only have your phone. It's a little box, it looks at you and then you listen to it, but you don't have like retro toys and fidgets, because you're like, oh, I don't, I don't need that, I'm an adult, you know. So, so really my recommendation to people is we need to get you a few lower stimulation forms of fun, forms of dopamine, and we need to bring more dopamine into your life at just a reduced point.
William Curb: The term I was reading earlier is the default mode network, which is the thing I've like was learning about and just like, I'm, no, there's not enough research here yet, but it's getting there. But the thing that really clicked with me was this idea that with ADHD, we tend to not switch out of that default mode network where we're into the task something network. When we're not doing that switch, it means that we're not able to get enough focus on one thing.
So, if we add that extra little bit of stimuli, that's when we're like, okay, we're getting into that focused realm by having this fidget, by having a conversation over on a walk rather than just sitting and talking to someone.
Skye Waterson: Oh yeah, that's a big one. That's a big one. I was listening to Steve Jobs did that, I was reading his book, and he was a big like go for a very long walk and have a chat, and I'm the same. Like it's hugely, hugely helpful. So again, it's these ways of giving ourselves permission to bring more into our lives in a way that contributes to us getting more things done. That's really the key. And I think a lot of times, especially for those of you who've come from a, or still maybe are in a very corporate work environment, it can be a very sterile environment, yes, you might have a lot of stuff on your desk or in your office, but we still have a little bit of difficulty with this idea of fidgets and noises.
I know I had a Rubik's Cube that I used to attach to, that I attached in my bag because it was acceptable fidget, because it's like, oh, it's just a key chain. For those of you who have this problem as well, I highly recommend getting a really fun key chain. But it is important. And also, one of the things I often discuss with people is, you know, before phones, people had a ton of stuff to play with.
William Curb: The range of what fidgets can be is great, because I have from rocks that I found that are just nice and round, and I can roll in my hand. It's great.
Skye Waterson: Yeah, totally.
William Curb: This fidget that I spent way too much money on was like $45, $50. That's like this really heavy aluminum thing that just it has such smooth action when I roll it in my hand. I can just do this forever. This is amazing. And it is like, so you can have a lot of different things. Or I find the real important thing with those kind of things, though, is to be like, it needs to be, it needs to be for me, I don't want to be distracting other people. So a lot of the Noisemaker ones, I'm like, if I'm alone in my office, I could do that. But I know it would drive my wife insane.
Skye Waterson: So I know I recently moved to a space where I've got my own office and I'm like, oh, what can I get? What can I add? But yeah, it can be anything. And even, you know, people have those little, again, I kind of go to retro games a lot. Have you ever, did you ever play this? It's going to age me. But those games where you press like a button, and there's water, and you have to get like little hoops over a ring, like that kind of stuff. Or you've got like a little box in that's got metal balls in it, and you're supposed to move it around. Like you can still buy that stuff on Amazon or, you know, eBay.
So check it out, you know, people like Sudoku, some people like a comic book, it can be a really short way to get started. And so again, it's really about lining yourself up. And this kind of corresponds with what I talk about when I talk about a step into focus routine. Instead of thinking to yourself, right, I have to go into a space, I have to turn off all distractions, I have to get it done. And then wondering why you're ignoring it. You know, then doing this for like two hours, thinking about something fun you could do that would get you to sit down and actually get started and then dialing that down.
So we could start with a comic book, go to a retro game, write the task down, what are you going to get done, move to a fidget, move to some background noise, like there's so many things we can play with. And for me personally, one of the reasons I loved writing about this, it was kind of a passion project, I just was like, right, we have to write about this. And one of the reasons I think it resonated with so many people, because it's the most popular thing I've ever written, was because it's about this idea of making life more fun.
William Curb: And just more engaging, because we have enough like miserable stuff out there right now. Like, and we want to be this intentional engagement with what we're doing, when a lot of times, especially when I was looking at the dopamine fast stuff, I was like, this is unintentionally just falling into trying to get some sort of stimulation through lots of video, lots of, you know, whatever it is. And I'm like, I can see why this is a problem for a lot of people and why the dopamine fast seems so appealing.
Skye Waterson: Just cut it off, you know, just get it done.
William Curb: But yeah, I do think there's yeah, like figuring out ways you can, I know that often doesn't work with ADHD anyways, we're just like, when I'm like, have this physical need to go play this video game, I'm like, my brain's like, just shouting at me like, you're never going to not feel this way again. If you just ignore trying to go play this game is going to distract you for the rest of the day. So you might as well go do it right now. And that's not true. But it feels true, which is one of the things I'm like, I have to remind myself, I don't feel feelings forever, which is so important in Sony areas where I'm like, if I'm mad, if I'm sad, there is no feeling I have ever felt forever. There is evidence for that. But in the moment, it always feels like I'm never going to feel a different way.
Skye Waterson: What do you do in that situation? I'm so curious.
William Curb: Well, if I have this presence of mind to remind myself, that's usually like, okay, and then it's a lot of like trying to step back from the emotional bit and like examine why I'm feeling it, why so like, if there's something, you know, like, there's a reason why I'm mad. Oh my God, being mad is so funny with that too. Because often it's like, I'm not even mad about the thing I'm mad about. I'm like, I'm mad because I didn't have any good food all day or some I'm dehydrated. And I was like, I had anything drink and had to add and thing to eat and my kids were not listening.
And I'm like, Oh, that's why I'm mad is not because they were actually that annoying. It was just in the moment I wasn't taking care of myself, right? And then, you know, being like, I yelled having to be like, okay, that was not, I have to go apologize. And which usually happens like, because I'm like, can you guys just brush your teeth without having a fight? No? Okay. Why haven't I learned the lesson of always sending you up separately? I've keep thinking it's going to work.
Skye Waterson: It was difficult raising kids with neurodiverse. I had somebody on and they talked about that, like, when you're neurodiverse, you're raising kids that might be neurodiverse because it's genetic. It's like, this whole journey that no one understands. It's a new version of people don't understand.
William Curb: But yeah, it is a lot about like stepping back. Okay, I'm not going to feel this way forever, but also being okay with feeling things too. Like, you know, I read some really sad stories in the news yesterday. And it was like, yeah, I feel really bad about this. But it's justified that stuff I was reading about was terrible. And I'm really sorry that those things happened, even though weren't related to anything I did. I was just sad. And so it's like, yeah, it's okay to feel these things, but to know I don't have to live here either. And it's amazing just having that like sense of like, the acceptance piece and being like, okay, I just, I know I won't be here forever, but I'm, I'm going to be sad for these things that happened right now.
Skye Waterson: Yeah, 100%. And sometimes I find it's good at that point to kind of have a little chat with yourself and negotiate a little bit and say, hey, like, okay, cool. So, so we're here and we're having this feeling it's going to go away, but it's here now. Is there something we could do to make this task that we still want to do a little bit easier? And you know, with the computer game example, I sometimes watch Twitch streams of people playing the computer game that I want to play. And with the story, the sad stories, sometimes I'll be like, okay, I'm going to go downstairs. I'm going to work with my family because I just, I want to be around people right now. So again, you don't always have to just go like, no, that's it, we're locking in. You can adjust a little bit, you know, negotiate with the inner you.
William Curb: Or just be like, hey, get out my time timers had 10 minutes. If I still really feel like playing in 10 minutes, I'm just going to do something else for 10 minutes and see how I feel in 10 minutes. And it's like, I do not feel those same emotions now.
Skye Waterson: Yeah, yeah, that's exactly true. That's totally a great form of negotiation as well.
William Curb: The one thing I know with negativitiating with myself is I have to be honest with myself is like-
Skye Waterson: You do.
William Curb: If I feel like playing in 10 minutes, I said I would do that. I need to do that because otherwise, I don't need to go down the road of not trusting my own negativitiations.
Skye Waterson: Yeah, lying to yourself is a huge problem. So many clients I have where I have to be like, okay, cool. So what's the real reason you're not going to do this? And they're like, it's boring. It sucks. And you're like, okay, good, good, we're getting somewhere. Like, this is the truth. And then we take it from there. But yeah, so much of, especially now, I think if you're like the world of getting things done and productivity is such a like performative world. If you've ever gone on YouTube and you've seen people with their perfect desks and like, this is my day. And I used to be such an addict of that stuff, especially before I got diagnosed. We can almost perform for ourselves as well.
William Curb: All that comparison to other people's like highlight reels kind of thing. Like I was thinking about this just last night, I went over to like a board game night at a friend's house. And we do this weekly and it's gotten to the point where like, they're not completely spicking span when we get there. And I'm like, I appreciate this that you like, you know that we're not how that works and stuff. And before I had kids, I was very messy too.
That they're not the full responsibility for that. But it was like, I was like, oh yeah, like, I remember so many times going to other people's houses and just being like, man, why can't I keep my house as clean as they do? And it's like, well, I'm like, yeah, but when they come over, I've cleaned for two hours. They're thinking the same thing.
Skye Waterson: Yeah, they probably have to or somebody, somebody loves cleaning. Yeah. And it's just a 100% different human from you.
William Curb: Yeah. And like, especially when we're like ADHD brains comparing ourselves to neurotypical or some, some people like, they're like, yeah, I can't feel comfortable in my house if it's messy. And it's like, I don't want that either.
Skye Waterson: That's different. Yeah. And you know what, I always talk about this, but we always compare ourselves to like the highlight reel of the neurotypical as well. In our mind, the neurotypical is up at six, meditating, yoga, perfect kids, perfect house, at work, nailing it every day. And I haven't even met a neurotypicals who are doing that.
William Curb: Yeah, I remember writing an episode about like, what would it be like if we didn't have ADHD? And my first thing was we'd still have problems.
Skye Waterson: Yeah, 100%. Yeah, we'd still have problems. And I think it's especially now, you know, it's funny when I was, in fact, the 2024 version of that article, the dopamine transfer deficit, they talked about that. And they were like, all of these experiences that you have with ADHD, they do exist in neurotypicals. It's just about that pervasive persistent across time element that is affecting it. So it's not like it doesn't happen. It's not like you would never experience that again.
William Curb: Yeah, it's with like, you know, the everyone's a little ADHD, but it's the, no, the ADHD part is that it is severely impacting my life in some way.
Skye Waterson: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And it's a struggle. People ask me that. I get questions by people like, you don't see me ADHD, like, you know, do you use these strategies? The answer is yes, 100% every single day. I use the dopamine dial yesterday.
William Curb: And I also feel bad about myself when I know that I could be using these strategies and I'm not.
Skye Waterson: Yeah, yeah. Sometimes I will teach on something and then be like, go home and be like, okay, it's guy, it's time to do that. It's time to get back on it. It's a journey and it's a process. And that's why it's so important to keep connecting, keep talking about it, keep talking to other people who experience it so that you do know that it's, it's okay. And, you know, keep learning systems and strategies to support it. Because it is a different way of working and it feels overwhelming sometimes. It's overwhelming because you've learned two things. You're like bilingual for systems.
William Curb: Letting go of some of that, like trying to be on 24 seven, like that's part of why we need, why we feel that need to like dial things up to a borderline 11.
Skye Waterson: Yeah, yeah, you got the news, you got TikTok, you got social media, you've got, you got it all happening. But that idea of switching from like, high, high stimulation down to zero, it's just so painful. That wall, I mean, I've talked to people, I ask people like, how does that feel to you? And people say it's a wall of awful. Obviously, you know, Jessica talked about that idea, but also just somebody said it feels like something is trying to eat their soul when they're doing that. It's a horrible feeling.
William Curb: Although it is, I have done some interesting experiments where like, you just sitting in that feel, the feelings of like, okay, I'm going to be purposely bored. How does this feel and just sit there and feel that. And it's like, yeah, that doesn't feel good. But it's also not as awful as my brain was predicting it would feel.
Skye Waterson: Interesting.
William Curb: And then there's the difference between doing this for five minutes versus doing this all day long.
Skye Waterson: Yes. I mean, I think it's a good exercise. I think all of these things are good. And it is, again, it's that playful experimentation space, though. I think that's the key, experimenting and keeping a bit of humor with what you're doing, because.
William Curb: It's not funny when you're like, tried to do that. I'm like, I'm going to sit and board them. Okay. All right. Now, how many hours are that? Five seconds. Oh, no.
Skye Waterson: Yeah. Yeah.
William Curb: That feeling when you look at the clock and you're just like, how has no time passed?
Skye Waterson: You're like, God, I must be time blind.
William Curb: Yeah, it's really amazing how pervasive the symptoms are through so many things that we just don't assume that we're just like, oh, yeah, this is how I live. But I don't actually think about how these things affect me beyond certain areas.
Skye Waterson: 100%. I always get a bit of a chuckle out of it because I work now primarily with entrepreneurs, and sometimes I'll have people reach out to me and say, oh, I don't, I don't, I have ADHD, but it doesn't affect me. And then you'll see their team and they'll be like, it does affect him. Please help. It's affecting so many areas of his life and he has no idea. It is. It's very pervasive and it can be, it's a constant journey.
I think people are always really surprised, especially when they go through the diagnostic process and it's like a list of 12 things and they're like, okay, this must be it. And it's like, oh, no, if you look at the diagnostic criteria, it's actually like this little bit about executive functioning right at the bottom. And, you know, there's a bit about emotional dysregulation that doesn't even make the cut. So, no, there's a few more things.
William Curb: I've heard this people be like, oh, I hate when people make, they get diagnosed with something and make it their whole life. And it's like, kind of is, like, I don't get to just switch it off when it's inconvenient. It's almost always inconvenient.
Skye Waterson: And I think that's the other thing as well, is like, you know, if we come back to this idea of dopamine detoxing, a lot of that comes down to, because we're talking often, like you said, about the addiction side of it, real battle. You're really battling against this thing. You're trying to fight it every day. And it's not a great way to live long-term. It can be pretty exhausting and pretty, you know, not necessarily positive for your mental health and how you see yourself. And I think that's why I've felt compelled to write about the idea of a dial and discuss that, but with people because I didn't want people to feel like they had to just wake up and do battle every single day.
William Curb: Yeah. And in same regards with addiction is this idea of harm reduction rather than abstinence. Because especially if you have ADHD, trying to cut out all dopamine is going to be a losing battle almost 100%.
Skye Waterson: The research says so.
William Curb: Yeah. And especially because dopamine is not something that we choose to have or not have. Like, even if you're bored, be like, ooh, that is a weird spot on the wall. I wonder what that's about. I'm like, oh, I am using a bunch of imagination things and getting tons of dopamine from having a story pop out because there's a, that tile looks like a face. And so being like, okay, there's no 100% abstinence here. But how can I, if I am feeling harm from having too many of these activities, how can I just do have a reduction?
Skye Waterson: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really true. And I wouldn't speak to the addiction because I'm not an expert on it, but I think definitely, you know, this idea of reduction and really also coming back to the why, like why are we, why is it that you are trying to put a timer on for five minutes so that you don't go play the video game? Like, what is the purpose of what you'd like, what are you doing overall? What is your goal? You know, what is the thing that you're doing to reach your goal? Because I tell you what, this happened to me, especially when I was in university.
Sometimes I wanted to not do the thing because the thing wasn't necessary or it wasn't the right thing. Like sometimes it's about stepping back as well and saying, okay, is my brain, are we talking a little bit about renegotiating our priorities here? And I don't mean like throwing the baby out with the bathwater and suddenly we're three new business ideas deep. But, you know, but I do think it's worth considering that that might be a conversation as well.
William Curb: Yeah. And it's, this is also like, it relates a lot to burnout and people being like, yeah, I'm just doing too much stuff. And so then I'd need to have this big crash where I'm just not paying really paying attention to anything, but having all the stimulation at once. I've got, you know, the phone, got a little screen, the medium screen and the big screen going.
Skye Waterson: Yeah, I love how we keep coming back to this and we're just like adding more things to this, to this scenario. But yeah, hundreds and the video game.
William Curb: There have definitely been times where I've been like, I've had my laptop, my phone, and there's something on TV and I'm like, what am I doing? What? I can't even pay attention to one of these.
Skye Waterson: Yeah, well, exactly. And I think that's actually a really good point because, you know, one of the benefits I think of ADHD is that if you're neurotypical, you can find yourself in a situation where you're like, wait, it's been 10 years. Why am I still doing this? I didn't want to do this. Oh, well, you know, I just kind of did it because it was the job that I was doing. Whereas if you're the kind of person who if you're not getting dopamine and also some a lot of research shows intrinsic motivation from what you're doing, then you are more likely to question it and to want to change it. Which long-term, you know, you've got this life, you want to live it in the best way possible, that can actually be a benefit.
William Curb: Yeah, absolutely. Because there have been times where you're just like, yeah, why am I doing this? I don't like doing this. And it's like, okay, let's do something different.
Skye Waterson: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.
William Curb: I can't imagine doing something I don't like for 10 years. Like that's...
Skye Waterson: Yeah, people do. And it can be a real problem where they're like, I don't like it. I really don't like it. I really, really don't like it. And you're like, why don't you just change like as a ADHD person? I'm like, I've thrown my life up in the air like half a dozen times.
William Curb: Well, I mean, and there are times too, and I'm sitting like getting started with things. I'm like, oh, I'm gonna have to do it this way forever. And it's like, no, I can change this, you know, when I started writing my newsletter, I was like, oh, man, I'm doing these things. Like, I didn't like how the format was. And I was just like, oh, wait, this is my newsletter. I gotta choose what I want to do. I'm just gonna change this to being, you know, every other week and I'm gonna change how we do the format. And I'm just gonna be way more fun.
Skye Waterson: Yes, 100%. That is like number one thing take away from this conversation because. Because so many times with everything, we feel like we have to just do it one way. I mean, in some ways, the dopamine detox is part of that conversation as well. We're like, right, time to do the thing that I don't want to do in the way that I don't want to do it. And it's like, life can be adjusted, like a lot of it.
William Curb: You're like, oh, you know what? I don't want to be on social media all the time. I want to be on social media. I mean, that's why like, you mentioned Freedom earlier and sponsored podcasts previously, but I like, I had to share to them because I'm like, this is something I already use. Like, this is such an amazing like, I can modulate how much I'm doing things, you know, and I set up a tiered system on my computer.
So like, at the last 10 minutes of every hour, I could go on social media and check things if I want. Like if I'm like, oh, there's something I wanted to look up and be like, da, da, da, I can, I can just slot it into my schedule. I'm like, I'm gonna do it at this time. Because I have like so many like things are like, hey, you should check this thing out on Instagram. And I'm like, but I'm blocking Instagram.
Skye Waterson: I know they always find a new way to get there.
William Curb: Yeah. But so I was like, so I like have that but I'm like, okay, yeah, I can. But then I still be like, during the day, be just like, okay, I'm like, done with that. And I'm just like, unconsciously opening up a tab and like bringing up like Facebook or the sky or whatever. And I'm just like, I didn't even think about wanting to do that. That just happened. And thank God, I had something that helped modulate that because I would have just been off in there. And that's when I usually have the hardest time stepping back and looking at how I'm feeling is when I have that like unending round of stimulation.
Skye Waterson: 100%. And that's the thing is like, at no point am I saying, don't use something like Freedom. I love Freedom. I use it all the time or other things like that. But I'm what I am saying is, you know, there's multiple things to do instead of that. One of them is to just be in the feeling, like you said, feel the feeling, see how it goes. And then the other one is to crack open a, you know, a book, a comic book or a, you know, do Sudoku or go outside or something like that. And it's not about this all or nothing that I think sometimes it can feel like.
William Curb: Yeah, I think that's precisely, we feel like there's like, it's this or I'm going to go, that I don't have another option. This is the only thing I can do.
Skye Waterson: Yeah. It's this or sit in a room with nothing because all I had was screens and they're all off now.
William Curb: Yeah, I did start doing a bunch of like puzzle books this year and I've been enjoying, I have not done them recently. I realized because there's a pile of stuff on top of them, but it is like a nice thing to be like, oh yeah, just gonna do this puzzle for a while.
I can write without my screen and okay, great. And then, you know, it's like, it's also unlike it also doesn't suck me in for hours. I'm like, oh, I did a one puzzle and now I feel like I'm done.
Skye Waterson: Yeah, yeah, exactly. But I don't think that that it's funny. I totally agree with you and I'm just laughing at the idea that that could become part of the dopamine detox conversation when you come in and you're like, no, totally cold showers and that's great. But have you ever thought about also doing a puzzle like at the beginning?
William Curb: Yeah, I was like, I'm addicted to puzzles. I can't stop. But I'm like, after a while, my brain's like, I am done with the cryptography. This is too much.
Skye Waterson: Yeah, your brain is like, this is not gonna work as an addiction process. Yeah, looks for something else. And that's where it kind of becomes fun as well, because if you think about what we are motivated by, it's so interesting when you look at the research that indicates that it's intrinsic motivation for us often. The extrinsic motivation stuff, it can work, but again, it's not really connected. The holiday at the end of the year is a thing that is happening. It's not necessarily a thing that is motivating you to get up in the morning and work.
So it's really important for us to have something else, because sometimes I think it's so interesting that we all assume our brains are the same. So you don't realize that the holiday at the end of the year or the break thing during the weekend is actually motivating somebody who doesn't have ADHD to work throughout the week. They get that dopamine boost because it's being transferred from that reward that they're getting at the end of the day, at the end of the week. And when you think about that, you realize that our entire life is built around that concept for neurotypicals.
William Curb: Every day, we don't need to have the dessert at the end of the meal. We can have a beginning of the meal.
Skye Waterson: Have a little bit at the beginning, eat it throughout the meal.
William Curb: That was one of the things that like, hard to get my head around when I was like learning about, because my kids that, you know, very selective eaters and stuff, and they're like, you know, reading about the literature, they're like, yeah, don't limit dessert to be the end. Put it at the beginning, get them interested in eating. And I was just like, I don't like this. This feels uncomfortable to me.
This feels the wrong way to do this, but it can be very effective. And I was being like, yeah, I don't know. Some of the stuff where I'm just like, man, the research is right. Where it does it feels right, because I'm like, yeah, my kids are super responsible with eating sweets and stuff. They're like, oh, I don't like this one. And I'm like, but that's still candy.
Skye Waterson: Yeah. You're just like, but you have to eat all of it. It's candy.
William Curb: Yeah. And they're like, oh, yeah, I'm done with my ice cream. I'm like, there's still ice cream in your bowl. You can't be done. That's not how my brain works.
Skye Waterson: Or neither. Maybe we were trained on a different system.
William Curb: Yeah. And I was just like, oh, I didn't put the sugar stuff on the pedestal edit. This was really effective for them. Like it's not effective forever, but like the way that I'm like, okay, that's amazing.
Skye Waterson: Yeah. And it's like you said, it's like, this might be how you, if you're listening, feel about this whole idea. It feels a little bit uncomfortable. You're like, should I be doing this? This is going against what I've learned, but it's very effective.
William Curb: Yeah. It's kind of like the difference between a concept of eating the frog versus just like building your momentum to doing what you do. And I know some people eating the frog works amazing for them. I procrastinate so much if I try to do that.
Skye Waterson: I have to work my way up to the frog. Like I'll eat the frog in the morning, but I can't just wake up and eat the frog. I need to do something else.
William Curb: Yeah. I'm like, if I, if I build some momentum, I do some other stuff first. And then I just, I'm like, I'll find myself doing the thing that I didn't want to do. I was like, oh, yeah. Well, I was tired of doing this other stuff. Okay, let's do this email that I didn't want to send. And I was like, okay, I'm done.
Skye Waterson: Yeah. It gets fun. I think it's the flexibility, the experimentation, the permission to try things.
William Curb: All right. So do you have any final thoughts for the audience?
Skye Waterson: Adjust your systems if they're not working. Don't just keep telling yourself it's you. Try, try adjusting your systems and then, and then see how you feel. Like you said, having that, having that little chicken with yourself.
William Curb: Yeah. And ask yourself, what would this be like if it was easy? Can I make it easy? Let's try that.
Skye Waterson: Yeah. You know, is it going to help if I print it out? Is it going to help if I do so you find that the start? Like, what are we doing to make it different?
William Curb: And if people want to find out more about your book and your coaching practice and all that, where should they go?
Skye Waterson: Yeah. So I run unconventional organization. I work primarily with executives, entrepreneurs who want help with their ADHD systems. So you can find me at unconventional organization on Instagram. You can DM me hacking and I will send you a link to the book. I'll send you a link to this article. And then if you want to find me on my podcast, it's called the ADHD Skills Lab. And you can find all the information about that and some other articles as well at unconventionalorganization.com.
William Curb: All right. Thanks. Good. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show again. I'm sure that a lot of people are getting a lot out of this because I know I was getting a bunch of ads for dopamine stuff and it's confusing when you get stuff like that. And it's nice to have some like, oh, maybe we should do things a little bit differently.
Skye Waterson: Yeah. I keep getting them as well. And I was like, I have to say something.
This Episode's Top Tips
1. The dopamine dial is a mental model that helps you modulate your level of stimulation, rather than flipping an on/off switch. Instead of quitting stimulating activities all at once (e.g., trying a dopamine detox), you dial down your stimulation in steps.
2. Doing the hard thing now and waiting for the reward later often doesn’t land. Instead, we often need to feel a reward during the process, not just at the end. We can use the dopamine dial to reward ourselves with just enough stimulation to stay engaged without pushing our brain into full-blown distraction or burnout mode. It’s not about denying ourselves stimulation, it’s about using it intentionally and dialing it to the right level.
3. Try negotiating with your brain when you're feeling emotionally overwhelmed or hyper-focused on a desire, such as feeling like you just need to play a video game right now. Try taking a 10-minute breather to reassess those feelings rather than trying to force or deny that urge outright.