This week, we have the return of Skye Rapson of Unconventional Organization to discuss an innovative tool she developed, the Planning Funnel, which is designed to help us break down our goals into manageable steps.
This was a really fun conversation, and the planning funnel looks awesome - now, as a note, the planning funnel is part of Unconventional Organisation’s ADHD Academy - but they do have a promotion going now that includes the Planning Funnel and 15% off your first month. So if that’s something you’re interested in be sure to go check out https://www.unconventionalorganisation.com/the-adhd-academy
In our conversation today, we talk about the importance of goals and planning, how to break down those goals, and ways that we can use ADHD-friendly strategies to make executing on those goals easier.
William Curb: I'm here with Skye Rapson and we're here to talk about the journal she's been working on that is a planning funnel, which I really like the idea of.
Skye Rapson: No, well, thanks for having me on. It's like I said before we jumped on here. This is the most I've been on a podcast and I love it. This is where I can kind of come with the new plans and ideas and share them with the audience, which is so fun. But yeah, it's something that I've been working on over the last year. I have plans that I see and this is something that we sort of developed with them because they kept coming with these goals and ideas.
But this sort of almost seems to defeat before they've even started going, I'll never do it. I don't even know how to mentally imagine how to do this. And so we developed the planning funnel using kind of their experiences and also the research into why this might be going on.
William Curb: Yeah, I think there is a lot of need for this like explanation of planning. One of my most popular episodes ever was just one on how to plan your day. It was not intentionally supposed to be like a big thing. I was just like, I don't know what to write about this week. And I was like, oh, I know what I can do. I'll just write about planning my day. And it was just like, oh, when you really break it down, when we don't know the steps to something, it really seems overwhelming.
Skye Rapson: Yeah, 100%. And I talk about this in the journal. It's one of these things that neurotypicals don't necessarily need to do as much or as deeply. So it's just missing from our knowledge bank.
William Curb: What I see a lot of ADHD tips and tricks as is that they're beneficial for everyone to do, but they're kind of like necessary for ADHD to do.
Skye Rapson: Exactly. The other side of it though, the cool side is that if you do actually take the time and resist that I should just start feeling, if you take the time to plan, you can then benefit from hyper focus, which is a benefit we have sometimes with ADHD, depending on what we focus on.
William Curb: Well, and oftentimes the planning saves us so much time from going down the wrong path, breaking things down. So you are actually putting the correct steps that you need to do.
Skye Rapson: Yeah. And we've been working on this journal in the ADHD Academy actually. And one of the things people have been saying a lot is, oh, you mean, because we talk about just picking three goals and people like, you mean three themes, you know, because we're talking about maybe like planning your whole year and the idea of picking three, even that is hard. And so sub tasking, breaking it down.
I think sometimes we can struggle with the idea of like, how big does this goal have to be? And how many do I have to have? And so, again, that's kind of why having a funnel system, it's not about forcing you to do it one way, because we know from ADHD, there's always like, adjustments of flexibility needed, but it's about kind of putting you in a sort of flexible system that moves you along.
William Curb: So maybe we could go through the steps that are part of the funnel here, because I think people would really like to hear what goes into a planning funnel.
Skye Rapson: Yeah, they're probably like, go on. So yeah, totally. There is three phases the first one is essentially the phase where you are thinking what am I even doing? So that's planning your goals. And that one, you know, we can talk about it more, but that's one you can often struggle from time blindness, because you'll think, okay, cool, today, I'll write a book and tomorrow, write another one. And that's great. You know, those are my two goals. And then step two is breaking down those goals.
And that's where working memory is often really a big factor. The example I use is if you say, I'm going to put a new rug in my house, seems really simple. But, you know, okay, I have to measure the one I have, I have to find another one, I have to decide what color it is. And I have to discuss that with other people who live in my house. I have to pick it up. I have to maybe get some help picking it up.
And I use this example, because I had to work through this with one of my clients. And it was like a 10 step task by the time you finished. And so that's the second step of breaking it down. And then the third one is actually executing on your goals. And that's where all the fun executive functioning struggles come in, which is, you know, when are we going to do it? How are we going to remember that we made this plan? Are we going to get the dopamine to even get started? Like those systems, setting those up in place as well is really important.
William Curb: Yeah, I do like how it's broken out too, because as we were saying earlier, I think it can feel very overwhelming when we start. I know when I've been looking at my 2024 planning, and I've been pushing it off because I have some things in January and February that make long term planning a little bit harder. So I'm like, it doesn't matter when you can plan your 2024 in June or whenever.
Skye Rapson: Yeah.
William Curb: The idea is, because I'm sure there's going to be people listening to this six months from now. And yeah, you can still use this framework, even if it's planning your 2024.
Skye Rapson: Yeah, there's always time for a new idea and a new start, especially when you have ADHD, because coming up with the idea that is not necessarily the issue that we have.
William Curb: Although I did like there's a page for here for the mood board to be like, how do you want to feel in 2024? Because sometimes we do get caught up in, well, what do I want to do? And it's like, I could do anything, but I don't know where should I focus my effort?
Skye Rapson: Yeah.
William Curb: And if I kind of go, oh, what do I want to feel?
Skye Rapson: And if we think about that first part as well, it's also a lot of it's got to do with not picking a goal for other people. Because so often we can be like, right, okay, I want to run five months. That sounds like what people say, done. That's my goal for the year.
William Curb: And it's like, but why do you want to do that?
Skye Rapson: Yeah. Yeah. So I can say it for a week before I forget about it.
William Curb: Yeah. I think it's a great thing when doing planning, having a vision of where you want to go makes it easier. Because you can go, okay, if I'm going to get here, what do I need to do to get there and then plan all the steps in between?
Skye Rapson: Yeah, exactly. And one of the things that comes up a lot, and we actually have a section of this in the journal is the self criticism that can often come up as soon as you make a goal. You make a goal, you're like, right, okay, I've thought about it. This is what I'm going to do this year. And immediately, and I've had this experience myself. That's why I wrote about it. You're like, yeah, sure you are. Yep.
You think you're going to do that. And all of those negative voices that we know we struggle with more with ADHD come in. And so there's actually a section to kind of put space for that and to write down what those are. And it's definitely something to be aware of if you find yourself resisting goal sitting or actually thinking about something you want to do.
William Curb: Yeah, it is tragic how quickly we have those voices in the back of our head from things maybe not said directly to us, but said about other ADHD people we know. I find that's the biggest trigger for me is that I hear someone say something about someone else. And I'm like, I do that same thing. They're just not saying it to me because I'm right here. Oh my God that's...
Skye Rapson: Yeah, I didn't used to get this as much, but back, especially before I sort of was open about my diagnosis, I got a lot of people saying, you know, sort of helpfully showing me the path because clearly I was on the wrong path, especially in academia. I was a bit of a wild academic, you know, doing my own thing. And, you know, there's a lot of constructive, helpful, you know, like, hey, you seem to be doing things in like a non-neurotypical way. Here's the right way to do it.
And me knowing that was never going to be able to do things the quote unquote, right way. And I think that contributed to a lot of those feelings, especially with these goals, if you're actually going to plan it, and how often am I going to do it? And oh, actually, I don't have the time I thought I did those kinds of things, they can all bring up a lot of emotions. Planning can be a weirdly emotional task with ADHD.
William Curb: Oh, absolutely. Because as you have in there, like, time blindness is this big piece of it. And so sometimes when we're planning it, we're like, oh, I can't do that. Or I want to do these 12 things. And it's like, oh, no, that's too many.
Skye Rapson: Yes. And that's the other reason I made the journal was because I think sometimes we want somebody there to kind of body double with us almost as we do this, because there is that feeling of, oh, I can't do all of these things, I can only do three of them. But what does that mean? You know, what does that mean about me?
Do other people only get to do three? Like, if I'm breaking this down, and I'm realizing I don't have as much time as I had, it can be easy to just shut the book of your life and just go, we're not going to really focus on this anymore. We're not really going to look at this. We'll just kind of take each day as it comes, which is great, but might not be what you want at this time.
William Curb: Yeah, because one of the hardest things was the idea of like, I have to choose. I want to do a lot of things, but I got to choose.
Skye Rapson: A 100%. And sometimes it's about putting things on that not right now pile, rather than saying, no, you're like, I'll get to it. When I was in academia, one of my professors recommended a two read later pile. That was essentially a didn't never read pile, just because you needed it.
William Curb: I accepted that all the tabs on our computers are that's like the same idea. Like, I'm going to self-destruct it somehow, you know, after a couple of weeks. I'm not going to remember what I wanted to read there, and it's going to be okay.
Skye Rapson: It is okay. That's what it takes to divide things up. I mean, I think the thing is, is that like, if we go back to the rug example, it can seem strange to be like, I want to put a new rug in my house, I'm going to break all the goals down. I'm going to set it up on my calendar.
I'm going to ring the people I need to do. I'm going to put it on my fridge as a reminder. And yeah, it can seem kind of strange, but at the end of the day, in three weeks time, you might have a new rug in your house. And that might not have ever happened otherwise.
William Curb: Yeah. And it's important that we're actually specific about these things. Because like, I need to order new parts for this thing I have. And if I just put that as my task, I am not going to do it. Because really what I need to do is figure out what the phone number is.
Skye Rapson: Yes.
William Curb: If I don't know who I'm calling, every time I get to that, I'm like, that's the most important step is finding out, okay, who am I calling? What am I ordering? Then when that task comes up, I can actually follow through on that execution.
Skye Rapson: Definitely. It is strange how often we trip up at the phone call so many times. It's like, oh, that'll just take a second. So I'll never actually put it in my calendar. So I'll never actually do it.
William Curb: It was actually funny right before this. My dogs need to get their nails trimmed. And I'm like, okay, talking to my wife about it. She's like, I don't want to call. And I'm like, okay, what's the name of the place? And just text me the number. She texted me. And I just like hit the number. I'm like, Oh, this took like two seconds once I have the information in front of me.
Skye Rapson: 100%. And that's kind of the hope at the end of this funnel is that you commit to going through something like the planning funnel or the journal, doing the steps. And then at the end of it, the thing is more likely to actually happen than it was at the beginning.
William Curb: And I think that's also an important caveat to have about all planning. It is not a cure for making sure that things happen.
Skye Rapson: No, it gives you interesting information as to why it might not have happened.
William Curb: Which is great for diagnosing for a, hey, if I want to make things happen in the future, why did this task not happen? Because keeping stuff in our head is also a disaster in the terms of I will come up with so many justifications why something didn't happen if I didn't really want to do that. If I had the time to write it down, make a list. I'm like, I kind of did want that.
Skye Rapson: Yeah, it's really hard to pretend like you weren't really planning on doing it if you wrote it down, even to yourself,
William Curb: Which is why I never write down that I'm going to do my tech. No, that's something to do.
Skye Rapson: That's your idea, guys.
William Curb: All the things you don't want to do, just don't write down.
Skye Rapson: Yeah, but the crazy thing is that is often how it is. I often work with people, and I completely understand this, where we have to say you're starting coaching and you say, okay, what are your goals? You're joining the academy, what do you want to do? And people are like, oh, I don't really like goals.
No, thank you. And I respect that. I completely understand that because if you do write a goal, then you have to deal with the fact that maybe it didn't happen. And if you're by itself and there's no one supporting you and there's just someone who's like, yeah, I don't know why you didn't do it. Everyone else did it. That can feel really bad.
William Curb: Yeah, it is not without the risk of not doing stuff, but it is worth it in that you're much more likely to do it. And sometimes you're going through the process and you're like, man, I really don't want to do this thing after all. I mean, that was a great thing with the mood. It's like, oh, yeah, this will not get me where I want to go for how I want to feel about 2024.
Skye Rapson: Yeah, I've noticed and I do not have any research on this, but I have no noticed from clients that often when we don't want to do something, there seems to be sometimes a reason behind it. It's like our subconscious brain knows, oh, this isn't actually going to be important or I'm doing this for someone else or something like that.
And our dopamine is lower. And even if we don't consciously realize it, it means that we just have no motivation to do the thing. I don't know if you've ever been in a job where you've been like, I don't think I'm going to be able to do this long term and instantly lose all motivation to do that job. I've been in that situation.
William Curb: I remember I had a friend too that he was just like, yeah, I'm not going back to that job. I'm like, are you quitting? He's like, no, I'm just not going back. In retrospect, I'm like, I think you might have ADHD.
Skye Rapson: Yeah, there's something weird. It's like a baseline dopamine just drops to a certain label and we're out. So if you don't do something it might be worth considering. Do you need to set a different goal for yourself?
William Curb: And then also being aware of like, okay, there are things I don't want to do that are important for me to do. It can be hard to get exercise in and all those other things that we want. I want to be like my mood being like, I'm full of energy. I'm going to have to do things that are hard.
Skye Rapson: Definitely. And I think exercise is a good example especially at the beginning of the year because a lot of people have that as a goal. And it is sort of like, okay, if that's something you want to do, how do you imagine your life looking? Do you want to, you know, become a yoga instructor? For example, something like that.
There was some interesting research we talked about a couple of weeks on the podcast. If we make a mastery goal, we're more likely to do it than if we make an achievement goal with ADHD. It was just one study, but I thought it was quite an interesting concept. So sometimes that might help you when you're actually planning your goal.
William Curb: Can you tell me more about what a mastery goal is?
Skye Rapson: Yes. So basically, and I will preface this was a college one sample of college students. So we're not making for, you know, it's not a mentor or an answer or anything. But basically what they found was when students had a goal of I really want to learn the subject. I really want to get like a good understanding of mechanical engineering or whatever it was versus I want to get a certain grade. Those students when they checked back, they actually did better if they had high levels of symptoms of ADHD.
And they had a goal of wanting to do really good in this class versus if they wanted to get a specific grade. So it's something to think about when you are setting up your own goals, whether you want to maybe focus on doing something. So maybe instead of saying I want to hit a certain target when it comes to exercise, it might be more like I want to feel my mental health improving and feel that I'm moving more flexibly than I did at the beginning of the year. Something like that.
William Curb: Yeah. I mean, it's also for me personally, I know I will cheat when I have a very specific goal. Oh, if I want to read a certain number of books in the year, it's like, oh, well, you know, if I read
Skye Rapson: Tiny books
William Curb: 10 of my daughter's books, I'm gonna get those done in a day.
Skye Rapson: That's so true. That's so true. Yeah. If you set a goal, I think especially if you're trying to get a certain grade or not that that's not important sometimes, but those kinds of metric goals, they can be fudged with or you can just do something crazy and be like, oh, I did it. But you know deep down that you didn't make a lasting change in your life because that's what it was really about.
William Curb: Yeah. Then I also find, yeah, when I hit that metric that I was supposed to hit, motivation is gone. That's so true.
Skye Rapson: Yeah. And I'd say this is somebody who had a baby a couple months ago and I'm trying to get back into moving my body and all of those kinds of things. And so my goal has been to feel fit and energized every day. And that's been a really nice goal. I have sub tasks put out and all that kind of stuff. I mean, I did make this journal, but that's been a really nice thing to aim for.
William Curb: Congratulations on the baby.
Skye Rapson: Thank you.
William Curb: And yeah, it is not just the immediate like I need to feel good. It's like, I want to feel good in a couple months because this is going to take some time.
Skye Rapson: Exactly. So I guess if you're listening and you're thinking about a goal, maybe starting there, how do I want to feel in a couple of months?
William Curb: And then also being like, how am I going to keep going? Because I've definitely done things from like, I'm going to get into exercise and I have murdered myself on the first day or the first week. I'm running five miles today. And I'm like, why did I do that?
Skye Rapson: Yeah. It's always good to check in with those kinds of things. And I think that can be one of the reasons why sub-tasking your goal can be so helpful because the sub tasks feel small. But if you really see that they're part of that overall goal, it can be more helpful for you to go, okay, I can't murder myself on the first day. I have to just do a little bit because I can see the progression of where that will go and what that will be.
William Curb: One of the things about planning that can be incredibly motivating and we're like, I am gung-ho today. I'm going to do these things. And it's like, it's not going to last because a lot of our goals are things that are going to take time. We can't rely purely on the motivation.
Skye Rapson: 100%. And that's one of the reasons why we have that execute phase, that last phase, which is, okay, you've got the motivation, great job, let's use that motivation to put those reminders on your phone, to call those people for accountability, to set up that calendar event, to book those classes, whatever it is you need to do, let's do it now. So that when you wake up tomorrow and the energy is kind of dissipated, you've already built those momentum accountability pieces in place so that you are sort of propelled along until you get that momentum back yourself.
William Curb: Yeah. And I also like the idea of also working through these kinds of things with someone else too, because again, it is easy to be too gung-ho in the beginning and not set yourself up, not being realistic with what I'm going to complete this week versus what I'm going to complete this month.
Skye Rapson: Exactly, and I also feel we can get quite down on ourselves. And our brains are funny thing. We can sort of subconsciously almost go, I don't think this is a good goal, or I don't think I'm going to reach that goal, or I didn't do it today, and then just never think about it again. And if no one's there to be like, hey, how to go, your brain isn't going to be like, hey, how to go.
William Curb: Yeah, it is funny. One of my possible topics to write about at some point is both how great accountability is, and then like the negative side of accountability, where I'm like, I'm just not going to talk to this person ever again. I got to ghost him because they know.
Skye Rapson: Yeah, I mean, I think that's one of the reasons why I personally do accountability with ADHD people as well, because I know that I'm a little kid.
William Curb: Yeah, if I'm working with this person, I need to tell them that I will disappear if I am failing. That is my go-to move is to be like, just go on silent mode for a while.
Skye Rapson: A non-response is a response. It means that you're not doing it.
William Curb: Yeah, which got to get that out of the way in the beginning, because it is, it's okay if I don't do things. Things will come up and it is important if I'm working with accountability, but like, hey, I couldn't do this because last year I had to redo all my goals because I tore my quad and I suddenly can't walk.
Skye Rapson: It is, it is harder to tick off that goal. And it is strange with ADHD. I don't know why this is. I think it's a combination of factors, but I know that often with ADHD when something changes, it can take us a little while to like acknowledge that this change is going to affect our actual life.
I think it's because sometimes we have a plan, whatever plan we had, and it can be hard to realize like, I have to do the executive functioning task of replanning and that can feel overwhelming, especially if something bad has happened, which is one of the reasons why another structure we have, which is the grounding and refocusing routine, you know, it's like actually take some time for yourself, take a break, do something fun. But also remember that after that, after you've done that, you might have to like stop and make a new plan because that's not very common with neuro-typicals, unless something really big has happened.
William Curb: Plans will change and it is okay. Like, okay, I spent all this time planning and now I have to replan. It's okay. There's a reason I started planning in the first place and there will be a reason I have to replant and it's going to create better outcomes down the line.
Skye Rapson: Exactly. I mean, that's why the journal has dopamine breaks and fun colors and things like that, because we want a process to be at least a little bit fun because you're going to find yourself doing it pretty often.
William Curb: Looking through it, it looks definitely was something I was thinking about earlier this month. It's like, I just need a checklist to go through to make the plan. I'm like, oh, that's this.
Skye Rapson: Yeah, well, it doesn't take very long. Yeah, a couple of hours, you'll be done a couple of sessions. I've never written a book. I've written a thesis, but I've never written a book because I'm always like, I don't know if I read one at this point in my life.
William Curb: Well, I mean, and this is great too, because it does have references and citations in it. So that's not just random thoughts. It's like, oh, yeah, there is science behind how we do all these things.
Skye Rapson: Yeah. Well, I think especially because ADHD is such a new area, I think it can be really tempting, especially if you have ADHD, like I have ADHD. It can be tempting for anyone to say, well, this is my experience and there's no research on it. So let's just go with that. But I think it's important to still back up everything with research because it's developing.
You know, one of the things we have on our podcast is we talk about research every couple of weeks, the new research that's come out, and there's lots of new stuff. And it feels good to know that you're not sending someone down a path that isn't going to fit them to do that would be horrible. If you want to make sure that everything you're doing is something you can say like, no, this will probably work.
William Curb: Yeah, it is definitely a balancing act of what is experienced, what is actually backed by research, what is emerging research that is, you know, not quite there yet.
Skye Rapson: You do have to hold yourself back. And I think maybe as an academic, I find this a bit easier because I have had experience doing this in other fields. But yeah, you want to be like, well, this and this and this. And you're like, no, we can't. Maybe that's a good theory. We can talk about it as a theory, but we can't actually use it as a system because we don't have the research yet. So we sort of building with it as it comes out. But there's lots of research coming out, which is really fun.
William Curb: Yeah, it is always fun to look at what the new Radio HD research is and be like, Oh my God, that's a thing too.
Skye Rapson: Yeah, like genetics and ADHD, we had someone on the podcast who talked about genetics and ADHD. I had no idea how much that was a factor. It's interesting.
William Curb: Yeah, the one that blew my mind not too long ago was the link between ADHD and hypermobility.
Skye Rapson: Yeah, I didn't know that was in research. Now that was one of those things where I was like, I'm pretty sure this is a thing. I mean, we're getting a bit off topic, but it's such an interesting space how often something is related to ADHD. But I think at the same time that again, it's just another excuse or reason more accurately to be kind to yourself because that thing that you're struggling with migraines, hypermobility, working memory, RSD, these there's now research coming out to show that this is actually part of ADHD.
William Curb: Yeah, I mean, I think that's a solid way to bring it back is we don't know everything that we're dealing with and being kind to ourselves being like, Hey, I'm not going to over plan. I'm going to do just a few things. We're going to knock those out. And then when I get those, I can either knock them out or I can reassess and do something different.
Skye Rapson: Yeah. And once you've finished a goal, like you can always make another one. But just make sure your accountability kind of knows that so that you speak to them.
William Curb: Don't do my disappear for weeks on end and then come back and be like, Yeah, I didn't do that.
Skye Rapson: And you're like, I'm running out of accountability friends.
William Curb: Yeah. All right, well, we're coming up on time here. Is there any thoughts that you'd like to leave the audience with?
Skye Rapson: Yeah, I think that my feeling would be just a reminder that it's an emotional thing to plan, because sometimes we are like, Oh, I'm just too busy or I just don't feel like that's the thing for me. And that's fine. But it can be good to just check in and say, like, Hey, do I have an emotional feeling around planning? And if that's the case, then maybe that's the first thing to work on figuring out what that is.
William Curb: Yeah, I think that's a great point. And it's giving it the respect it needs. Because sometimes I'm like, Oh, I'm just gonna do this planning while the TV's on in the background. I need to dive into it.
Skye Rapson: Yeah, give yourself a reward to get started, the perfect level of dopamine for you, all those things.
William Curb: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast. It's always a pleasure to have you on.
Skye Rapson: Wonderful to be on. And I will just say, if you are interested in finding this journal, it's in our ADHD Academy. So that's where people can find it if they want.
William Curb: I will link to that in the show notes. And I'm sure a lot of people will be interested in seeing some more about it.
Skye Rapson: Great. Awesome. Thanks so much, Will. great to be back on.
This Episode's Top Tips
Recognize that planning your goals is crucial, especially for individuals with ADHD, as it helps in managing time blindness and setting realistic expectations.
Focus on a few select goals or themes to avoid feeling overwhelmed. This approach allows for more in-depth planning and a higher success rate.
Break your goals into subtasks to make them feel more achievable and to clearly see the progression towards your larger goal.
Planning can be more emotional than we tend to think of it. We need to be mindful of self-criticism and negative internal dialogues that can arise during the planning process and give ourselves the time it deserves.