This week I’m talking with fellow ADHD podcaster Peter Shankman. Peter is the host of the Podcast Faster Than Normal where he talks with people around the world who have learned how to unlock the gift of an ADHD diagnosis, and use it to their personal and professional advantage. He is also the author of Faster Than Normal: Turbocharge Your Focus, Productivity, and Success with the Secrets of the ADHD Brain and also just recently came out with a new children's book, The Boy with the Faster Brain.
In our conversation today Peter shares the story of his own journey, from feeling "broken" to recognizing how he can harness his ADHD. We also discuss practical strategies for working with our ADHD, owning our decisions, and the importance of things like morning routines and exercise.
Be sure to check out Peter's podcast Faster Than Normal
And his books:
Faster Than Normal: Turbocharge Your Focus, Productivity, and Success with the Secrets of the ADHD Brain
The Boy with the Faster Brain
William Curb: Today I'm here with Peter Shankman and you want to give you a little bit introduction about yourself and why you wanted to come on the show today.
Peter Shankman: My basic premise is I have spent my life being assured that I was broken and being absolutely convinced I was broken. And yet I'm now 51. And yet somehow I've managed to start and sell three companies for a lot of money. I've written six bestselling books, including a New York Times bestseller. I'm a corporate keynote speaker who pretty much travels the world giving talks.
And I'm talking head on CNN and MSNBC and all that. I'm also a skydiver, a two time Iron Man and a father, a single dad of an awesome 10 year old. Yet through all that, I kept being told that was broken and kept being told things were wrong. And then one day I discovered that I had ADHD. And once I figured that out, everything started to make sense because all the things that I've done that people thought were weird were actually things I was doing to allow me to be the best at whatever it is I do.
So over time I realized that my sort of traits or abilities to do the things I do that people think are weird are actually gifts. And from that I wrote a book called Fast as the Normal, which talks about the concept of using, of looking at neurodiversity as a gift instead of a curse. And then I focused on building a kid's book called The Boy with the Faster Brain. Basic premise is that one of every seven to eight people in the world are going to be diagnosed neurodiverse in the next 10 years. And there is absolutely no reason to think that as a bad thing.
It's actually a phenomenal thing. Without different brains, our society will not evolve. And so different cognitive talents and cognitive functions are actually mandatory. So one of the things I've been doing lately is teaching companies how to be more embracing of neurodiversity and how to understand neurodiversity and how to hire for it and attract it and retain that talent and sell for it. It's been a fun ride. I'm having a good time. I have some really, really big name clients who have been helping do that and it's going really well.
William Curb: Awesome. Yeah. I mean, I think it's so important for people to realize that with the right systems in place, we can thrive. And it's just the trick of figuring out what those systems are. Cause often it's like, yeah, we do feel this sense of being broken because we're shoved in these systems that really, really don't work for us.
Peter Shankman: Well, I mean, you know, look at the concept of a schoolhouse, right? Where the classes are, the desks are straight and they're this way and they're that way and they're put into rows. And the reason they do that is because 150 years ago, there were one room schoolhouses and that's the only way they could fit as many people and many students as possible into the school. Times have obviously changed now. And so we have the ability to create different things, but it's very hard to sort of move out of that way of thinking, you know, it's the classic story about the 10 year old daughter is watching her mom make a meatloaf and she puts the meatloaf, you know, shapes it and puts it in the pan.
And right before she puts it in the oven, she slices off a quarter inch on either side and daughter says, mom, why do you do that? I'm just, you know, I don't know. That's how grandma taught me. Let's call grandma and find out. They call grandma and says, well, that's really funny. I don't know. That's how my mother taught me. It's okay. Let's call great grandma and find out they call great grandma. They said, why do we cut a quarter inch? So I don't know why you did it.
I did it because I had a small oven. Right. And so it's that premise that a lot of things that we do, we do simply because we've always done them that way. And it doesn't necessarily need to be that way.
William Curb: Absolutely. Often on this podcast, I talk about that same idea of just like just because something's a certain way, doesn't mean we have to be doing it that way.
Peter Shankman: 100%. Again, it's, it's one of those things where you learn, okay, here's what I'm going to do. And if it works, great, I'll do more of it. If it doesn't work, I'll do it another way. And for whatever reason, I love that. I personally love that premise of sort of trying something. Let's see if it works. If it works, great. If it doesn't work, great. I learned a way not to do it.
William Curb: Yeah.
Peter Shankman: Right. Not everything is supposed to work. That's the whole premise behind it.
William Curb: And it's really funny how we just get stuck in this like, well, that's the way it's supposed to be. I was like, well, if it doesn't work, it doesn't work.
Peter Shankman: Exactly. And you know, that's why companies fail because companies don't keep up with the times, right? There's a wonderful story about a baboon, very similar to the meatloaf story, I guess, five baboons in a room, it is zoo and a zookeeper puts a bunch of bananas on the top of the cage that puts a ladder under them. And sure enough, eventually one of the baboons notices the bananas climbs the ladder to eat the bananas. He starts eating bananas.
The other four baboons get hit with an icy cold stream of water. The next day they put another thing of bananas up there. And the first baboon goes up, starts to eat the bananas. All the baboons are getting hit with the icy cold water. Third day as the baboon starts to go up for the bananas, the other four beat the crap out of them because they know if he goes up there, he's going to get hit with cold water. So by the fourth day, no one goes up, no cold water. The next day they remove one of the original baboons and replace it with a new baboon who says, ooh, bananas. bananas before you can even get to the first step of the ladder.
You have to crack it. You know, he has no idea why that they keep replacing the baboons until there are five brand new baboons, none of them have ever been hit with water. But all of them
know they're not allowed to go to bananas. They don't know why though. And the rule is that's the way we've always done it.
Right. So it becomes that premise that as long as you get out of your own way and allow yourself to fail and allow yourself to learn better ways to do things, neurodiversity helps that because people who are neurodiverse think differently than the norm. I've been fired for more than one job as a teenager because I thought differently and tried different things. And when you're 16 years old, working for a movie theater, whatever, they just want you to be like everyone else.
William Curb: It is really hilarious when you're dealing with their they're like, why won't you just do the things like everyone else is doing? Like, because that's a dumb way of doing things.
Peter Shankman: It was a meme or TV shows or the character goes, you know what, actually, no, let's do it your way because it's much more easier for you, even though it's going to take five times longer, you ignorant fool.
William Curb: Yeah. So I love those ideas of like, Hey, let's just do things in a new way because it is so frustrating to be stuck in because I, you know, we'll get in my head and like, why can't I do this? And it's like, Oh, because I'm doing this the wrong way. So I had a good time reading through your book. I thought there was a lot of great points with like how we manage ADHD. It goes into so many different facets, even though it wasn't like explicit that these are the things you're doing for ADHD, but it was also just like talking about how he was able to do things so much better when he had some exercise.
There was a lot of different areas where if we can come at this from a couple of different areas, we're going to be able to do so much better with managing our ADHD. And I think exercise is one of those ones that. I hear all the time and I personally find it really helpful, but I always hear people being like, but I just don't want to.
Peter Shankman: You know what? I had a seven mastermind group called Shank Minds. We have about a hundred people in it. And every once in a while, you know, at the end of every month, like people get an automatic email says, Hey, just up way. I'm billing you, you know, for next month. So don't be shocked when, you know, credit card shows up and without fail. You know, one or two people look quit. I was asked them, I was emailing personally, Hey, so you left. No worries. Just curious why. And without fail. I said, Oh, you know, I loved the group. I just another time like that's a lie.
Like you'd all the time in the world. What you didn't have was the desire and that's fine. But understand there's a huge difference between not having the time and not making time. I work out at 4 30 in the morning because it benefits me, because it helps me, because it makes me a better person. I know that I'll be exhausted by seven or eight PM and I'll be asleep by eight 30 to make that happen to accomplish that. I give up going out late. I give up partying. I give up doing things that would go against that schedule.
When people say they don't have time to go to the gym and have time to work out and don't want to, what they mean is other things are more important. And that's fine. But be honest about it. Own it. Admit what it is. Right. I don't have time to go to the gym. The hell you don't. The gym opens at five in the morning. You can go at five in the morning. I doubt you have other meetings at five AM. The problem is you chose to stay out until 11:30 last night at a bar, which again is fine. I'm not judging that. I'm judging the fact that you're blaming it and not having the time when you very clearly do.
William Curb: Yeah, it is about owning your choices there and being mindful of that. When you're choosing to do one thing, it is saying no to a bunch of other things. It is hard to get out of that mindset. It's like, oh, well, it's the same thing we're talking about earlier. When I was in my twenties, it's like, yeah, I should be going out doing all these partying things like, or I could be doing those other stuff that I want to be doing as well.
Peter Shankman: And I think that at the end of the day, the common point where you decide, right, here's the one do better.
William Curb: Yeah
Peter Shankman: That's it.
William Curb: And I think that's often where people do find that big thing of change. They're like, oh, yeah, I really do want this thing more than I want that. Kids have been like such a monumental shift in who I was because I'm like, oh, I want to be able to be present and do stuff for them. That means I have to get to bed on time and I have to do all the things that are going to make sure that happens because I'm tired. I will be snapping my kids, you know, yell or whatever. And it's like, yeah, I don't want that's not the parent I want to be.
Peter Shankman: And that's when I'm on the bike at 4:30 every morning. You know, I might be exhausted, but I'm a better parent.
William Curb: And that's at the end of the day. That's what I'm trying to do. And it's also like fair to also be like, yeah, it's still hard. I'm sure you have many mornings. You're like, I don't want to be here.
Peter Shankman: Of course. But again, you plan for that. So I make sure that I go to sleep and I put on a pair of bike shorts before I go to bed. My Peloton bike is three inches away from my bed. I can literally roll out of my bed onto the Peloton bike. Sometimes I'll bike for five minutes before I even open my eyes. But at that point I'm awake and I'm working on it. That's all I need is so you put those rituals and those resolutions into place that allow you to do what you need to do.
William Curb: That is one of the things I've often found too, is like when we're planning for best case scenarios, soon as we hit any chip in the road, you know, like I inadvertently stayed up late and now I can't wake up.
Peter Shankman: You understand that you're going to have those pushbacks. You're going to have those failures. You're going to have things that don't work all the time. And that's fine. When that happens, you make sure to get back on track. You know, the key is having a bad day is normal. Having, you know, screwing up every once in a while is perfectly normal. Owning it is much more rare.
William Curb: Yeah.
Peter Shankman: What I learned years ago is that I rarely drink anymore because when I used to drink, I wouldn't have one drink and a five. Not so trying to get drunk because I liked it. A good feeling chasing dope. I mean, then after those five drinks, I go to bed, I'd wake up the next morning. I'd feel like crap. I'd be dehydrated. Like, oh, we know we'll fix that. Let me order two grilled cheese, tomato and bacon sandwich. That'll help. Well, as long as I did that, I guess I ruined the day. I won't go to the gym. I'm already even like, shit, let me order pizza. Now it's two weeks later. I've gained 10 pounds. Where's the benefit there?
William Curb: Yeah, it is really important to be like, hey, I messed up here, but that's OK. In the scheme of everything I'm doing, if I just have one bump rather than like a two week bump, it's way better.
Peter Shankman: Absolutely.
William Curb: There's the like productivity method of doing like Daisy change, where you like to like bark off each day that you do something and don't break the chain. And I'm like, I get so demotivated by breaking the chain that I'm like, that's not useful. What's more useful is being like, you know what, I'm going to plan that I'm going to have days that I miss. It's more important that I have like five weeks where I did four days each then.
Peter Shankman: Exactly. Well, that's the same thing. I mean, I have a streak going on my Apple Watch for almost a thousand days of beating my exercise goal every day. But to get to the point where, you know, I don't want to work out hard every day. You need to recover. Right. So sometimes my beating my exercise goal will literally be me sitting on the bike going five miles an hour reading a book for an hour and a half just to beat it. Now, great, I get some movement in, but I'm not. I'm certainly not increasing my cardiovascular health. So what's the point? They need to rethink that.
William Curb: I've had that same issue with my Apple Watch where I'm like, is this measuring what I want it to measure?
Peter Shankman: Absolutely. And, you know, the bonus, OK, so I have the streak. Great. But yeah, it's not necessarily the most useful thing.
William Curb: Yeah. But what I think about is like goals for like reading a certain number of books by the end of the year. So I'm like, that's great. But also doesn't cover the quality of the books, the length of the books.
Peter Shankman: Exactly. What's the point?
William Curb: Right. What's good about it? Like, I could read 12 really short books in a couple of days and be like, oh, man, I hit my goal really quickly.
Peter Shankman: I totally agree. Again, at the end of the day, it comes back to knowing yourself because the crap that we do, let's face it, I am a master bullshit artist. I can bullshit anything, anything I want to. Again, another reason to sleep in my gym clothes, because if I didn't work out first thing in the morning, I would figure out a way to not work out in the afternoon. I'd be walking home and say, OK, go to the gym. Oh, look, a news alert. They found a new asteroid and it's orbiting Pluto. You know, just in case that thing gets knocked out of orbit, I should go home so I could take care of the dog.
And in my head, I'll justify that. Right. It's complete BS, but I'll figure out a way to make that work. The key is you get up and get it done before you wake up, before your brain has time. The ADHD brain is brilliant at coming up with ways that you fake it out and you get it done before the ADHD even wakes up. So it does wake up. It says, OK, he's already on the bike. God damn it. You know, and then you can't stop it. Well,
William Curb: And I love also doing things early because stuff does come up. And I'm like, oh, I literally have to go and do this. And that was when I was planning. And if I'm like when I've completed the most important tasks in my day early and self care should absolutely be one of my most important tasks. Yeah, you can't take care of anyone else.
Peter Shankman: You can't take care of yourself. I'm on the bike on average by four thirty a.m. every morning.
William Curb: Nice.
Peter Shankman: And it's exactly what I need. Exactly. As long as I get it done, I'm good. I mean, I'm done by six thirty. By six thirty, I'm showered, I'm dressed and changed. I could make up a coffee and I have 15 minutes before I have to wake up. My daughter gets school and it's the funny thing about exercise and getting healthy is like you're just so happy you walk around like a goddamn leprechaun. Your skin is soft. Your hair feels like the hair above a horse's ass is totally silky.
Right. And you're running around like you're a damn. you know, happy joy of ray of sunshine. You drive everyone else insane. It's the greatest feeling in the world. I love it.
William Curb: It is amazing how like, not only how much it makes you feel good, maybe not exactly when you're doing it, but like right when you finish, you feel usually feel pretty good. And then that lasts way longer than you expect it to.
Peter Shankman: One of the other things I do is I take cold showers. And normally I'll start off with a shower that's hot and I'll move to cold. And what everyone says about that, they think, oh my God, I took a cold shower, what's wrong with you? What people don't realize is that cold showers actually give you a don't mean hit. That lasts about three hours. An increase should don't mean by like a factor of five.
And then it literally lasts like three hours. So you are unbelievably high as the kite for that entire time, right? And you have absolutely no way to be unhappy. There's no reason to be miserable. And you're loving life. Everything's awesome. That simply comes from the act of taking a cold shower. How easy is that, right? It's just amazing what people don't think. You know, these are the little things that you can do and it will change your world.
William Curb: Yeah, cold showers have been, I've done quite a number of them. I don't always do them because I find I get more benefits from a hot shower right before bed. But the morning cold shower is very nice to be like,
Peter Shankman: You can't do them right after a workout either because your heart can explode. But other than that, you know, it's good stuff.
William Curb: I enjoy doing the mental training of walking in the shower and then turning it on to cold to be like, yeah, because it's the expectation that's the worst part. And then I'm like,
Peter Shankman: I can do this, right? Exactly.
William Curb: I found that to be very good training for just being, for other like ADHD tasks where I'm like, man, I don't want to start this. Okay, we'll just start and see how it feels.
Peter Shankman: I've also found a phenomenal cheat code for that is chatGPT. I'm not going to use chatGPT to do everything because there's no point. It can't do everything, but what it can do is it can give me a start. So if I need to write a proposal for a client or something that I don't want to do or just know I can do it, but it's gonna take a long time, whatever. I say to chatGPT, write a
proposal based on this, this, this, and this, do these things, and then it sends it to me and there, now I've started. All I have to do is edit that proposal and turn it into what I want it to say.
And that's a lot easier than starting from scratch. So that is for an ADHD person or a neurodiverse person that is an amazing, amazing gift. It's worth, I pay the 20 bucks a month for the premium, but for T4 it's totally worth it.
William Curb: I found it very helpful, absolutely, for that starting thing to be like, okay, now I have a structure to go with this. I like doing it for emails as well, being like, hey, just how would I respond to this? And being like, okay, well, what you came up with is terrible, but I can build off of that.
Peter Shankman: Absolutely.
William Curb: One of my favorite ones from doing that was like, someone was asking me where I was like located and they're like, where in New York, where are you at? ChatGPD is like, well, I'm also in New York. I'm like, no, I'm in Washington, but good guess. Yeah, I think that's the funniest thing about it. It's just so confident in its wrong answers.
Peter Shankman: I've been using, it's for different things. It's not ready for like, give us 20 bucks and we'll give you 100 selfies from one picture. You take one picture, we'll send you 100 headshots. They're the absolute worst. I look like somewhere across between the Sopranos and the Ogre guy from the Goonies. It's not good, but you know, it's not there yet, but for certain things, it's phenomenal. And again, to help you get through the benign and the banal is amazing.
William Curb: I've also found there's a number of things to do up with like breaking down tasks in like, yeah, hey, I want to clean my living room. Can you give me the breakdown tasks? And it's like, yeah, you need to do these 12 things. And I'm like, oh, wow, that's broken down way more than I ever thought I could do that. And I love giving that to my kids to be like, hey, clean your room. Here are the actual things you need to do.
Peter Shankman: Exactly. Well, and that's one of the things about ADHD is that you just see this one giant chore. But if you go to the premise of eating an elephant, which is one bite at a time, it makes it a lot easier to get through.
William Curb: Absolutely. It does feel overwhelming, but yeah, it's still like, you can do it. It's all about setting up these systems that are going to help us get through it.
Peter Shankman: Exactly.
William Curb: So do you have anything you want to leave the listeners with?
Peter Shankman: So my entire world is at shankman.com. Both books Fast and Normal and The Board with the Festival ran as well as all my business books were available on Amazon. And I love talking about this stuff because I think it's the right thing to do. I love helping to find answers about neurodiversity. I talk to companies about how to hire those employees and find them. And so, yeah, I am always more than willing to chat about this stuff. I email us peter@shankman.com. I answer all my emails.
William Curb: Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on the show. It was a pleasure talking to you. And I think people will really enjoy it.
Peter Shankman: Thanks, it was great to be here.